John Lebaron 00:00:00  We’re absolute zealots around something we call the e-commerce equation, which is revenue as a function of traffic times, conversion times, price times, availability. And I think that’s very much the way that we think about accelerating brands is just isolating those specific variables of the equation and really going to work on okay for traffic, for example, there’s paid traffic. There’s, you know, organic traffic, there’s off platform traffic. And what are all the hundreds of different kind of atomic levers that we want to pull and automate increasingly via AI for the brands that we represent. And and then helping them set an expectation, helping them forecast appropriately, helping them understand what is their ops upside.

Speaker 2 00:00:47  Welcome to the E-comm Breakthrough Podcast. Are you ready to unlock the full potential and growth in your business? You’ve already crossed seven figures in sales, but the challenge is knowing how to take your business to the next level.

Josh Hadley 00:01:00  Are you tired of getting squeezed by Amazon, watching your sales fall? Watching more overseas competitors come in to overtake your market share? Watching the race to the bottom pricing.

Josh Hadley 00:01:12  Well, today’s guest has the answer for you of how to diversify yourself off of Amazon and how to continue that profitable growth off of Amazon. Welcome to the Ecomm Breakthrough Podcast. I’m your host, Josh Hadley. I scaled my own brand from 0 to 8 figures in sales, and now my mission is to take it to over nine figures on my journey to nine figures, I bring you unfiltered conversations with the smartest minds in eCommerce. Past guests include Kevin King, Ezra Firestone, and Michael E Gerber, author of the email today, I’m excited to welcome to the show John Lebaron, the CRO at Patton, the leading e-commerce accelerator that helps brands scale profitably across marketplaces worldwide. John runs the SaaS and services business units for pattern and oversees all global go to market activities for the company and its partners. Prior to joining pattern, John ran marketing for the Google Cloud business at Rackspace and has held a variety of global marketing roles with leading tech companies including Apple, Cisco, and Sienna. He holds an MBA from Kellogg School of Management and MSW from Columbia University, and a BA in communications from Brigham Young University.

Josh Hadley 00:02:28  With that introduction, welcome to the show, John.

John Lebaron 00:02:31  Thank you so much, Josh. Thanks for having me.

Josh Hadley 00:02:33  John. It’s not often I have someone with so many acronyms behind their name on the podcast, but you’ve got, you’ve got a wealth of education behind you.

John Lebaron 00:02:43  Yeah, it makes me think I spent too long in school listening to that bio. So thanks for making me feel old.

Josh Hadley 00:02:50  Hey. Well, you’ve got what I love, though, is you’ve got, so many years and experience in international marketing, and I think that is extremely valuable, especially where we find ourselves in today’s kind of like e-commerce landscape. with that being said, John, I would love for you to just give everybody like a brief overview of like, what is pattern? I think many people have heard of it. I know you guys have your own conference that you do every year as well. so why don’t you give people a quick overview of like, what pattern does and why you’re working with so many different e-commerce brand owners right now?

John Lebaron 00:03:25  Yeah.

John Lebaron 00:03:26  You bet. So when I joined the company eight years ago, it was actually called I serve, which some people may remember if you’ve been in the space long enough. We are Amazon’s largest seller. We are also a gold star partner on, Tmall. And we also represent a ton of brands across more than 60 marketplaces, including TikTok, target, Walmart, etc. and super excited to be able to work with you guys and help any of your audience members. And basically, if you think about pattern, you know, we kind of grew up on the by cell models. We work with probably more than 300 brands on this buyer inventory and then represent you on these marketplaces around the world, take you global and it’s all around profitable growth. And so I guess the the value proposition is more or less like, do we think we can do it better, faster, cheaper. Then you could do it on your own and grow you more profitably than you could do on your own. So that’s kind of the value proposition.

John Lebaron 00:04:15  We work with a number of huge brands like Nestle and Tumi and Sylvania and Panasonic and, you know, a ton of big brands like that. And so, we’re super data driven. We have a technology platform, we have more than 29 patents and more than 400 people working on development and AI. And so it’s a super fun business. And I would say, like what pattern is compared to what it was. We continue to innovate and grow and evolve. And so I think that’s what’s kept me here for for these eight years. And we continue to sell on new platforms, can innovate the business model and the products that we offer. And so just generally, I think we’re super dialed in and thinking about the experience that we have and that we can offer to these respective brand partners and try to be a good citizen kind of in this e-commerce space and learn from other people and deliver a solid opportunity and experience to the brands that we work with.

Josh Hadley 00:05:10  Awesome. Well, I love that. Well, and with that territory, comes for comes with working with a lot of different brands and seeing what’s working, what’s not working.

Josh Hadley 00:05:19  And I think you are familiar with this, like the story for the last, I feel like 18 months on Amazon has been, hey, lots of people losing best seller rankings, best seller badges, lots of pressure from overseas competition with the impact of tariffs, tariffs and FBA fees. Margins are getting squeezed and it just seems to be like a race to the bottom. Nobody’s increasing prices. Instead, prices are only getting cheaper on Amazon. Is that what you’re seeing from brand owners that are coming to you and what’s what are some of the things that you guys are helping them with to, to try to like, correct those problems where there is a declining growth and they’re no longer like the easy button is no longer there on Amazon like it once was.

John Lebaron 00:06:05  Yeah. I mean, everything you just talked about is 100% what we deal with day to day. I think the incursion of, you know, overseas sellers that we’ve heard, you know, some represent 40 to 50% of all sales on the platform are kind of these Chinese or overseas sellers.

John Lebaron 00:06:21  I think, you know, Amazon is trying to squeak out more margin, on their logistics front, you know, with inbound placement fees and just continuing prep, they’re starting to, you know, have an incursion on CPCs on a more aggressive stance than we’ve ever seen. I think there are a $50 billion advertising company at this point, which is, you know, pretty, pretty daunting as well. So I think that the squeeze, so to speak, that brands are facing is 100% real. You know, this kind of softness in growth or, hey, it doesn’t seem as easy to grow as it used to be. This is getting super complex is absolutely a recurring theme, I think, in terms of, you know, as I again started eight years ago, Amazon was often the fastest growing channel for brands. Sometimes it was the most profitable, sometimes it wasn’t. But I would say, you know, it’s a bad time to set up shop as, quote unquote, an accelerator, because in a lot of brands, you talk to her like, I don’t need an accelerator.

John Lebaron 00:07:13  I’m accelerating just fine. And and so the tables have absolutely turned. That makes it harder for us to accelerate brands, for sure. But I think, you know, that layered on with the complexity across all of these different functions. And if you’ve ever heard us talk or visit our website or, you know, whatever, I think we’re we’re absolute zealots around something we call the e-commerce equation, which is revenue as a function of traffic times, conversion times, price times, availability. And I think that’s very much the way that we think about accelerating brands is just isolating those specific variables of the equation and really going to work on okay. For traffic, for example, there’s paid traffic. There’s, you know, organic traffic, there’s off platform traffic. And what are all the hundreds of different kind of atomic levers that we want to pull and automate increasingly via AI for the brands that we represent. And and then helping them set an expectation, helping them forecast appropriately, helping them understand what is their upside.

John Lebaron 00:08:13  You know, we’re sitting across 46 trillion data points and really helping connect the dots for those brands to give them a realistic perception of what is my upside? Where do I have easy win ability across my different keywords that I’m not bidding on today that I should be? And so I think as we can provide more transparency, more clarity around those levers to pull and more true, like fidelity around what their actual upside is, it’s really up to the brand on whether or not, you know, quote unquote, the premium of working with someone like, a pattern is worth it, or whether they think they can do it on their own. And you know, it’s not really for us to say what that looks like. But I would say, we’re seeing a lot of acceleration in the business. And, and I think that’s a it’s an important signal for brands. Hey, this is getting pretty complex for them to do it. And yeah, margins are kind of shrinking. But the cost of doing it on their own is in some cases prohibitively expensive versus kind of quote unquote, the tax they might pay to accelerate using someone like a pattern.

Josh Hadley 00:09:12  I love it. So John, I’m sure the listeners are probably like, hey, what what are what is the magic sauce? What’s the secret behind your guys’s success there? What are you guys able to do? Let’s say there’s a new brand owner and they want to come to you guys. What are the different levers that you guys are able to pull specifically on Amazon today that’s able to like, accelerate growth? What are some of the mistakes you’re seeing being made by brand owners? what are some of the levers that you’re like, oh, you haven’t been doing this, this and this. Like we’re easily going to turn that on and that’s going to help you be more defensible, etc. maybe walk me through how you work with like a new brand owner and some of those levers that you’re helping them pull.

John Lebaron 00:09:55  Yeah, I mean, I think at the at the very highest level, it just starts with control. How in control is the brand? Because control at the atomic level, so to speak, is very much a microcosm of control at the macro level.

John Lebaron 00:10:11  And if you don’t control kind of the easiest things like who is selling your product or, you know, are you in stock? Those are kind of like the the easiest kind of layers. And then you can kind of build up from there. But I would say that the lack of control often gets magnified, across the rest of your channels, not only on Amazon but across everything. And so that’s probably the number one thing that we really focus with on brands. And again, this may not be as applicable to some of your sellers because some of the sellers maybe. I guess they could be arbitrage sellers. They could be sellers, like a pattern where they partner exclusively with a brand, or they could be brand owners themselves selling and going through. But I would say, you know, almost universally we find a lack of control as a rate limiter on the growth of a, of a given brand. And so, as we think about that e-commerce equation, maybe I’ll start at the far end availability.

John Lebaron 00:11:03  Like are you in stock if you’re not in stock, why? And what piece of your availability is shipping Prime, for example? We know that if you’re not shipping Prime and you’re shipping, you know, kind of snail mail or even out of your own facility, you know, the kind of the gone are some of the days of like sell or fulfill prime or, or FBA on site or some of these other programs. We still are actually involved in a lot of those, because we kind of grew up in this world and have a lot of grandfathered kind of things that we do. But I would say as a general rule, like that’s a that’s an easy thing to kind of fix often, you know, I guess, like profitability notwithstanding, there’s a lot of good reasons not to have stuff go FBA. but that’s a that’s a thing that we look at a lot and I guess, like some of the reasons you might not want to go FBA, given some of the new placement fees, is it’s incredibly complex to make sure that you kind of have what I would call edge of the network.

John Lebaron 00:11:54  I grew up in the kind of like optical networking space and building, you know, data centers and networking and things like that. But you think about the corollary of, you know, meta and Netflix. ET cetera. Getting their content to the edge of the network is really, really important. And FBA or Walmart fulfillment center or fulfilled by TikTok and all this other stuff is very much that same kind of thing. And so you cannot get your inventory to that edge of the network. Your BSR will suffer. You will not be shown in as many searches. You won’t have as many glance views as those that are really, really good at it. Again, some of the rate limiters that we see with a lot of brands is like, hey, it’s kind of expensive. Maybe they’re paying a lot of inbound placement fees, maybe to ship to a number of different facilities to to accommodate that, they’re going to have to to extend themselves on inventory. And maybe that’s just not from a cash flow perspective.

John Lebaron 00:12:46  A sustainable option. But not only that, especially like this time of year, we’re recording this in October. I know this isn’t going to be in February. So but think about just like the holiday season and how long does it take you to get into, into those those fulfillment centers, like pattern has the benefit of scale. And so our turnaround from like our cross dock into actually being in stock in, in Amazon is often less than 48 hours. which is just I hear brands talking about like, it takes us three weeks, like we’re trying to set up appointments to get in our inventory in September or October and Amazon saying it’s too late. And so we actually have a number of large sellers that are using us as A3PL at this point. You know, that’s a fairly new service that we started to offer. and sometimes, you know, sometimes we’ll do the prep for them, sometimes we’ll ship inbound. Sometimes they’ll only use us for our middle mile infrastructure to get into those, because again, we’re shipping skis and luggage and pill bottles and stuff like that.

John Lebaron 00:13:45  And so the density matters. You know, someone can actually ship to one location, full truckload and then ensure that their products are also getting full truckload into those that edge of the network that becomes, you know, a pretty simple thing. I say in terms of, you know, that pricing, component and basket size, so to speak, that is also really affected by, the control, because if you have a lot of other sellers that are kind of forcing that race to the bottom with Amazon, you’re going to have a degradation in pricing. So that’s another thing that we look at with brands is what is the kind of trajectory of pricing over time, and is it collapsing. And we run full pretty aggressive. You know, because the data we sit on pretty aggressive like price elasticity analysis of demand to help brands understand okay. What are their competitors pricing at? What do we think their upside is in the category? If you raise price, what is going to happen? And I would say that we’ve successfully raised price on probably more than half of our brands even this year alone.

John Lebaron 00:14:44  And so I don’t I don’t think it’s like a foregone conclusion that price is that lever. It’s the easiest lever to pull, but it’s also the most punitive lever to pull. And then when you think about, you know, I don’t want to go on forever here, but if you think about traffic and conversion, there is a lot from a data driven perspective that you can do to optimize. And I would say back to your question, what are some of the common mistakes that you’re seeing? I mean, at a very high level, not optimizing their content in a very data driven way, kind of using what I would call best practices, but not really. I mean, you can look at the keyword level, conversion level, at the conversion rates, at the keyword level to understand across your whole category. Now, this is hard at scale, but AI is making this way easier to understand kind of the micro changes you should be making to your content to convert at a higher level and happy to provide ample examples there.

John Lebaron 00:15:34  On the traffic perspective, what we see very often brands kind of renting keywords versus owning keywords. And it’s because the rents are going up all across the the kind of marketplace, it is just becoming somewhat untenable. And budgets are getting exhausted early days, despite even things like, you know, algorithmic bidding and day parting and some of these like, fancy, sorts of like topics. It doesn’t matter if you’re bidding on the wrong keywords and you don’t actually ever own those organically. You’re kind of on a race, on a treadmill that is not probably going to get better before it’s going to get worse. And so I think that’s the generally the, the tenor that we go in with brands. And again, we own the patent on this. So it’s easier for us. But it’s like really working with brands to understand where do you have mathematical propensity to win across keywords, and where can we start to reinvest dollars into those so that you’re not just renting, you’re renting to own. And so you’re renting.

John Lebaron 00:16:32  And then eventually, like I would say, the number one thing that we see across the brands we work with is the the keywords on which they are winning organically is increasing over time. If that is not happening with a brand, they should fire us immediately. But that’s what we see. And those become those keywords become annuities through which the brand can start to generate revenue, own revenue, and then either be able to invest that in other types of areas or take it back to the bottom line to offset some of those rising costs they’re seeing in some of those other areas that I discussed.

Josh Hadley 00:17:01  Yeah, John, really good summary. There’s a lot to unpack there, but I think suffice it to say, I mean, you you talked about three things, right? three, I think key levers that people can really identify with, which is number one, like, are you in stock? Right. And I think this comes down to forecasting and supply chain. And it also talk. It comes down to like efficiency.

Josh Hadley 00:17:24  What I find a lot of sellers get stuck with is like last minute trying to schedule something into Q4, right? And it’s like, that’s not going to happen. Like, you need to be scheduling those appointments out in for Q4 back in July, right, to make sure, like you’re locked and loaded, you’ve already got your inventory planned coming in. And I think like at the scale you guys are at, as you said, like it’s truckloads of stuff coming into fulfillment centers. And so while most people are waiting three weeks for something to actually be fully received into FBA, your guys is an opportunity to get stuff in within 48 hours. Is is is unspeakable. So with that, I think John talked to everybody a little bit more about that new service that you guys opened up, because I do think that this like supply chain, although it may be unsexy and it’s not the shiny marketing hack or something that we’re talking about, but this efficiency of being able to say, hey, I’m reducing my inbounding time for maybe it’s 3 or 4 weeks down to 48 hours.

Josh Hadley 00:18:31  Hey, imagine the impact that that’s going to have to your cash conversion cycle. Right. But number two, just availability. Right. With more availability in Amazon’s FBA system, like your organic rankings will naturally benefit from that. Because as soon as like Amazon sees, there’s no, you know, inventory on the East Coast, like your rankings fall off the face of the Earth on the East coast, but you’ll still stay ranked really well on the on the West Coast, because that’s where you still have your remaining inventory. So, John, talk to us a little bit more about like that unique offering that you guys just came out with.

John Lebaron 00:19:08  Yeah. So it’s basically like at 3 p.m. we started to realize like, hey, actually, if we’re shipping, call it 70 million units a year, you know, we do more shipping of goods, than some brands. We do more shipping in the night shift than some brands do all year, and so the scale at which we are shipping is almost incomprehensible.

John Lebaron 00:19:29  And what we started to realize is like, well, we’re actually being penalized as well. We’re the largest seller on Amazon and we’re also the largest shipper. And and so what we started to realize is like, well, actually, we need density just as much as any other brand. You know, like the cost differential. If we ship something full truckload into Indiana or Concord or anywhere else, if we ship a full truckload, we are talking about like per unit, variable cost. So like single sentence basically if that has to go LTL or less than a truckload, that number jumps for us on a variable cost per unit up like in some cases 5 to 10 x. And then like forget about it. If you had to ship parcel or overnight or anything else like that, it just like blows through the roof. And so, it’s not just like marginally better. If you can go full truckload, it is crazy better. so you think about that piece of it. So we started to say like, well, what if we just offered this service to other people at a fairly competitive rate? We think we can make good margin on that business.

John Lebaron 00:20:32  And we’re like, used to like a super like if you look at patterns now, a public company. So you actually go look at our margins, but we’re in the single digit kind of like profitability, EBITDA sort of numbers. And so we’re used to running on a pretty thin margin. And so if we can kind of run this business on a thin margin, but then also kind of add a creative value to our core business, that’s kind of a win win. It’s a win win for us. It’s a win win for the brands. Maybe they pay less than a competitor. And then and then we we all kind of benefit together. And so that’s how I get that. Why would I call unit economic level. But we’ve worked with a number of big brands that have kind of come over and started to use this. And so there’s kind of like a marketplace prep kind of component. And I’m not the expert on this, but there’s a marketplace prep kind of component that we’ll do for brands like you got pill bottles, you got hazmat stuff, You’ve got stuff that needs to be poly bagged, like whatever.

John Lebaron 00:21:21  It looks like some brands are good at this. Other brands like kind of suck at it. It’s like a not a core competency. And honestly, a lot of peoples don’t do it. And and Amazon is obviously incredibly punitive. They would literally shut down your account if you shipped too many bad prep sort of like products into the into their warehouses. And so, you know, we have, I think, one of the lowest order defect rates in all of Amazon because like this is a machine, all of our conveyance systems, everything that’s set up as a cross stock like product come in. They get on levers. They get pushed out. Like if we turn this around very, very quickly and maybe it’s not 48 hours, maybe it’s 72 hours, maybe it is even longer, but it’s like dramatically lower. Why? Because we actually own our own freight companies now. We own our own trucks. We have standing appointments with every major Amazon warehouse, basically, and they know that to accept it and they know again that our goods are going to be good with fluid loading all of our trailers, they’re getting in there, getting out and the order defect rate is very, very low.

John Lebaron 00:22:18  And so like Amazon has no kind of like incentive other than to prioritize AMP patterns trucks because a of are standing appointments but but B because we kind of own this end to end piece. And then I would say like, okay, if you don’t need help with the prep, maybe you have like pretty simple things and they’re just going to go co-mingled in Amazon. But you’re kind of like, I am losing money now by shipping to seven warehouses instead of one, or 13 warehouses instead of two. What if I just ship to pattern? And then pattern actually takes care of that middle mile? A I probably save on cost and then B to your point, I probably save on that cash conversion cycle because because pattern is going to get faster into those warehouses than I am. And so that’s another piece. And we’re starting on reverse logistics and e-commerce now. Like that is becoming a an increasing amount of our focus. And I think, you know, this month is the first month where more goods will go through our facility that are not ours.

John Lebaron 00:23:14  We don’t own them. We don’t own the title on them, not partnered through that kind of like three peel business. Then our actual our like our core partner in businesses. And again I think it’s a very virtuous cycle. But I think it’s us focusing on the most minute details and and really focusing on that because we have no option to because our margins are so thin. You have to you really just have to think about it at the most granular, granular level and then build up from there. And I would say we have the smartest minds in the business doing this. We have people who worked at Amazon for more than a decade running robotics centers, run an actual FCS. And you know that expertise not only helps us get more lean and efficient, but it actually helps us create more, partnerships and and bridges across both Amazon as well as, you know, whatever Chewy and Wayfair and some of these other major Walmart, TikTok, etc. it’s creating us a definitely a force to be reckoned with in that fulfillment and logistics space.

John Lebaron 00:24:11  As unsexy as it may be to your.

Josh Hadley 00:24:13  Yeah. No, I love that. And that the the scale at which you guys are doing things is definitely bringing down costs. And so, for anybody that is, has seen, their own shipping into Amazon dramatically increase. And if that is still a pain point, I think this is a great option to look into.

John Lebaron 00:24:32  And it’s easy, right. Like, I’m not here to like bait and switch anyone or make and say it sound better than it is. if you go to pattern comm and you and you and you, you can actually just bid it out yourself. You can sign up online without ever talking to a human being. There are no contracts on the place. You can you could use us just for the holidays and then not use us for something else. Like we’re trying to make it as dead simple and frictionless as possible, and and attracting the brightest minds in the business to go make it a reality as well. So I hope it continues to be a good service out to a people who are kind of struggling with this.

John Lebaron 00:25:04  And again, it actually just reinforces our kind of competitive advantage and mode as well. Love it.

Josh Hadley 00:25:11  John, another thing that you talked about is, you know, it’s the traffic and then it’s the conversion equation, right? And I think that conversion rate optimization is something that people don’t spend enough time on. And I think there’s a number of different things that you could be working on, whether it’s your keywords in your title, whether it’s your main image, it’s your bullets, it’s the copy, it’s the A-plus content. So where do you guys go to optimize your listings? What have you seen is like some of the best levers to impact conversion rates, especially when you’re trying to target specific keywords.

John Lebaron 00:25:47  Yeah. I mean, if you think about we’re literally managing tens of thousands of Asians at this point. And so getting very, very hyper focused on, you know, there’ll be a recurring theme of just like this atomic kind of particles of of what to kind of do. And I would say the days of like keyword stuffing or back end stuff, like it’s just, you know, the easy stuff is now gone.

John Lebaron 00:26:08  And now we get into like the masterclass of how to actually improve the conversion rate. And I think, again, the tricky thing is it’s getting more complexity. By the way, it’s only going to get more complex because Amazon is not doing variable content quite yet. I think they’re testing around with it. but you know, we will get to a point probably in the near future, maybe even by the time this podcast airs, where Amazon allows you to start doing dynamic content based on keyword, based on timing, you think about, okay, half of my people want to buy over Black Friday and Christmas, and maybe I sell Christmas lights. And another half of my persona is like weddings and and parties and stuff like that. Well, if I knew the keywords that were leading to that specific, you know, detail page, and I can actually dynamically render content at the Asin or at the detail page, or even on my A-plus content or, or even on my brand store. If I could do that by keyword and I could actually match the to the persona, that would actually increase my conversion rate.

John Lebaron 00:27:06  So we’re not quite there yet. And it’s it’s going to get pretty tricky. And I, I saw like a tweet the other day again that’s going to be outdated by the time this airs. But a true classic. And it was showing how meta was like hijacking the listing. And it turned it into like a grandma. It was like this young guy wearing like sweats and like they’ve, they’ve, I think launched like a new, super like comfy, like sweatshirts and stuff and then actually hijacked their ad and started running it without their permission. It was like a grandma in like, sweats. And he’s like, this is the craziest use of AI ever. And so like, the boundaries and back to that control paradigm are even more important. And so we have this other product called product experience management that our own teams use. And we are now making available again to any kind of seller or any kind of brand that wants to use that a la carte. That was always like the hardest part for pattern is we kind of have this like all you can eat buffet, you have to let us buy your inventory model.

John Lebaron 00:28:02  And we’re starting to kind of innovate on, disaggregate some of those things and making them available, whether it’s logistics, whether it’s now content and conversion. But we basically go in and analyze every single keyword in the category that is leading to a conversion. we look at every single headline and title. We use AI to scan every single image and break those into what we call image archetypes. we think there are more than 20 different image archetypes. Thinking about like a lifestyle image would be an archetype or a proof point or a testimonial sort of type of thing, or a close up of the product. Those are the types of archetypes that we use. But if we know all the keywords that are leading to traffic to a listing, and we also know all of the products that are converting into revenue, and we also know all of the different variables that lead toward that conversion, aka the attributes that are being shown, as well as all of the archetype conversions. We can start to triangulate and start to understand.

John Lebaron 00:29:03  Okay, well, we know that in this category, products that use this type of attribute and are this prevalent. Like so for example, let me think of like a think of like a robot vacuum. We could go in and basically say, hey, all of the robot Ryobi or I can’t remember all like Shark Ninja, all the different, like, you know, kind of iRobot, I should say that are that have these types of products and there’s a bunch of Chinese knockoffs in there as well. Obviously, we know that all of the products that say, supports edge cleaning. We know that only 20% of the products actually use that attribute somewhere in their listing or in their A+ content. But we know that that that products with that also with that attribute featured represent more than 70% of the sales. This creates like this arbitrage opportunity for smart minded, intelligent, atomic level types of people that can go in and start to say, wow, I probably need to update my image or my content with this like supports edge cleaning sort of thing.

John Lebaron 00:30:06  And if we can statistically show that that’s different, you know, there might be like a call it like a baseline number of attributes that are hard to interpolate, whether that actually creates lift or it doesn’t. But there’s a whole subset of others that we know actually drive that conversion. And so instead of thinking like, I’m going to hire an agency to just develop my, my creative, and maybe I’m going to use my brand standards, getting hyper focused on like what actually drives conversion because we might be creative. It could be supports edge creative cleaning. There are literally hundreds of these examples, but it’s very hard to discern that until you interpolate all of that. And then I would say like another just easy on the conversion. And this is where like a lot of I don’t know, I don’t want to speak ill of anyone, but a lot of these types of like call it PIM and Dam solutions, they’re very invested on helping you syndicate your content, but they’re not really invested so far that we’ve seen, unlike telling you whether it matches.

John Lebaron 00:31:02  You know, we were a huge satisfied customer forever. But like they had like a 19% fail rate on their uploads into Amazon. And it’s not even their fault they have great tech. But Amazon, for whatever reason, everybody knows this. They’ll be like, for whatever reason, I let some other third party seller hijack this listing. Or even though you told me to update the content and I had brand registry, I just decided not to for whatever reason. And so there’s kind of like this weird black hole that ends up happening, and it’s super opaque and obscure. And so we’re like, well, let’s just develop tech that actually. Okay. What is your source of truth on the content? Now let’s go measure pretty regularly whether or not that content in your source of truth, that is in your opinion, damn that therefore is there in seller central or vendor central, that then is actually at the live listing and you would be shocked. I mean, you probably wouldn’t be shocked, but like we’re talking about orders of magnitude of like 20%, 30% of your content doesn’t even match what you said you wanted it to match.

John Lebaron 00:31:57  And that’s a that’s a huge liability on your conversion rate because not only legally as well. Right. Like if you have claims or something like that and it just doesn’t match. Like you literally could be sued. So getting back to basics and be like, does the content I want to show up actually matches it actually live? And if it’s not, you got to go re-upload it again or you got to manually do it. And we have, you know, thousands of employees basically at this point that are all invested at making sure that loop, that feedback loop is, is as automated and as crisp as possible. We do have brands that have 99% match rate of their content. And then we talk about, well, how do you actually optimize that content and everything that I just walk through on the archetypes and the attributes and all that other stuff. Then you start to say like, well, let’s a B test this. Like the data is showing that we should make this change, let’s do this and have a hold out for this amount of time.

John Lebaron 00:32:49  And let’s see if the the conversion rate starts to improve. And so we’ve seen double digit increases of conversion rates on the brands that we’ve started to run this with. And it’s it’s super exciting because back to the e-commerce equation. If everything else stays flat, let’s say I do nothing else, but I make that change mathematically. If I improve my conversion rate 20%, my revenue goes up 20%. And so to your point, it’s like the easiest thing you can do to improve your your revenue is actually to focus on conversion. But it’s incredibly complex. And and it can be like pretty daunting, especially if all those other levers are a little bit sloppy. And then I guess the last thing that I’ll say on that conversion piece is, you know, AI has been this like promise of like, oh, let’s just use AI. Well, we started using AI, to test out. And what we found is, as everyone probably has found out as well, like, AI hallucinates a lot and it’s wrong a lot.

John Lebaron 00:33:43  And we would start to see we’re pretty heavy in like, the vitamins and supplements space. But if you use like a this is a brand part, but not on the buy sell but like really like, you know, it might say, like, it might spell it wrong. You know, this little kind of like, leaf on here might be totally, like, janky on the AI rendering. Like, it looks good from afar. And then you look in and it’s like instead of saying dietary supplement or instead of a blue bland, it might be like a totally different color or instead of 60 servings, if I say like 51. And so it just wasn’t really plausible. And so what we started to do was we created something called the portal. And this is literally a 3D hardware, which is a rotating table with an actual like AI hand as well as an AI. And you could go look on our website and kind of check the check out the portal, but a robotic arm with the camera on it.

John Lebaron 00:34:33  And then we kind of put LCD screens. We got patents pending on this now, but but LCD screens around this that basically take an image instead of like we would rent full day, we’d rent houses to do full day photoshoots with our brands because we do the creative for our brands in many cases as well. And it was took a long time and it was prohibitively expensive. So now with the portal, we can actually shoot, you know, Parisian cafes or or skiing or, you know, we can get all of this stuff and that kind of, like hardware combined with the advances in software, if everyone’s familiar with like, nano banana and like, all the like, you know, llms that are building all these, these engines, when we talk to brands today, it’s like, how many people are using AI for images? Tons of hands go up. Okay. How many people actually have used it on their Amazon detail pages? Bunch way fewer hands go up. Okay, who actually has a live listing on Amazon today using AI images that they created? It’s still usually like zero.

John Lebaron 00:35:32  I think I’ve started to see like 1 or 2 hands come up. And so there’s a huge amount of trepidation today with brands to start to fully embrace. because a lot of the, you know, hallucinations and challenges that I talked about. But if you can use that type of hardware and combine it with this, now we’re starting to actually have real and it’s all data driven around. What do we think the archetypes need to be for these brands? We’re starting to do massive conversion improvements at scale, but it’s only available because, again, this this fanatical detail on the on the smallest detail from fanatical focus on the smallest details, as well as a lot of the advances that are happening in AI that are making this, like we actually have a shot and a run at this, and I expect massive conversion gains across our portfolio because of this.

Josh Hadley 00:36:17  Yeah, I love that you talked about that. You guys have like 20 different like archetypes for the images. And as you guys are looking at optimizing main images and overall conversion optimization, you’re not just looking at one data point in a silo.

Josh Hadley 00:36:32  And I think that’s the important aspect is like the more as e-commerce becomes more complex, it just is becoming more data science at the end of the day, which is just being able to feed in lots of data. And so I think that’s where, you know, AI is going to be able to help digest things a lot faster for us. But I just think you hit the nail on the head when it comes to, hey, look at everything going on in the marketplace. Look at this product category as a whole. Look at the top brands. What are they doing that’s unique or different? That’s allowing them to beat these other brands and then applying some of those tactics into your own listing. So I think that’s a great takeaway. The other thing that you talked about that I think was like really well pointed was on PPC and are you just renting keywords? And I think this is a trap that a lot of brands get themselves themselves stuck into where, hey, I’m, I’m maybe not ranking organically for a keyword, but I’m profitable when I’m advertising for this keyword.

Josh Hadley 00:37:40  And that might be a fine answer for today. But three years from now, are you going to be profitable on that keyword? More likely than not. With the increase of competition. CPCs are only going to increase and there’s going to be new advancements in those product categories. And so like your relevancy is probably going to decrease overall. And so your tacos that although they’re profitable now may explode. Maybe it’s 12 months from now. Maybe it’s 24 months from now. But to your point, you talked about how PPC should only be there to help you acquire and actually obtain it. Like you’re not just renting that PPC keyword indefinitely. Like you’re like renting to own, so to speak, right? You rent that keyword to eventually own that keyword from an organic standpoint. And if you’re not, there’s probably issues with your product. There’s conversion issues that are impacting that as well. But I think the complexity like we can talk about this and it all sounds great. I think the brand owners are having problems with.

Josh Hadley 00:38:47  Well, if I were to actually, like, focus on every single keyword. Like, I’ve got hundreds, if not thousands of keywords to focus on. So how does one person actually do that? How are you guys managing PPC and helping brand owners? I mean, it’s yes, using AI tools, but at the same token, like incorporating human intelligence there to ensure that like the hallucinations aren’t having you spend a bunch of money on a bunch of random keywords or you’re like, no, this is not even smart.

John Lebaron 00:39:17  Yeah. So I think, you know, one of the challenges is you’re almost like the whole industry is kind of conspiring against brands and sellers in some cases. Amazon has an incentive to make you waste money because that’s like high margin business for them. That’s how you become that $50 billion ad company. The agencies that work on are kind of incentive to have you spend more, because a lot of them make their money as a percentage of ad spend. Right. And so that they’re kind of conspiring against this whole thing.

John Lebaron 00:39:47  And then I think the reporting is kind of janky to where it’s like depending on if you’re at one p or £0.03, like even the bounds of of which they take attribution credit is also there. And so the reporting even gives you this false, like, oh, I need to be focusing on ACOs and Roas because like those are the numbers. But like everyone kind of knows they’re not actually true because Amazon has this attribution window and and like and back to like the conspiring of the of the reporting plus the agency models plus Amazon. It’s like well I would be shocked if anyone that’s listening ever had someone be like, you should spend less on advertising. Like, everyone always wants to be like, you should spend more. It’s working. Like if you have this good Roas and it’s like, well, the easiest way to juice your Roas is just to bring like bid on more branded keywords, right? Like, that’s the easiest way to do it because you’re basically cannibalizing traffic that’s happening. And so as we kind of do the forensic work with a lot of brands, we see that happening all the time, their proportion of how much they should be doing on conquest versus defensive or branded versus non branded are oftentimes fairly out of whack.

John Lebaron 00:40:51  And that’s like a symptom of some of the like challenges that I just talked about. The other thing is that if they’re spending a lot of money on keywords and advertising and bids that don’t ever convert. And so there’s literally just like flushing money down the toilet, I’m like, okay, stop this. There’s no halo effect here. Like, let’s just stop spending money on things that do not convert. and I would say like, yeah, if anyone’s listening here, we have a free tool on pattern’s website if you want. It’s kind of buried, I guess a little bit. I think it’s under resource. It’s called a digital shelf. You can type in any asset on Amazon, and it’ll basically show you your actual digital shelf, your your closest competitors. And what it does is again, back to this. Like I’m showing a real I don’t know if people are watching, but it’s like this is like an electrolyte. So if I were to go on here and look up this product, this is a pina colada flavor, then it would show me.

John Lebaron 00:41:40  Okay. Here are all the keywords and and wouldn’t show me the keywords, but it would tell me like, what’s happening behind the scenes is showing me all the keywords on which this product is ranking, whether it’s ranking number organically, whether it’s ranking number one or 5 or 500. here are all the different keywords. It’s like a family tree of all the keywords that ladder up and drive traffic to this listing. Then what it does is it says, well, what are all the other products on Amazon that keywords are that that are also many of the same keywords are driving traffic to their listings. Now that’s kind of like a two by two matrix. So it looks like frequency of of keywords also driving traffic to these products. Then it looks like correlation correlated search of like okay when this product shows up number three organically who’s number on a keyword on one keyword who’s ranking number four and number five or number two. And number four. When this product ranks like number 70, who’s number 71 and who’s number 69.

John Lebaron 00:42:36  So it looks for like clustering. And then what you basically see is like, okay, here are the other products that rank most frequently and closest to you on the shelf across the most the highest number of keywords. And a couple of things that, predictably, you end up finding is like, well, some products that show up next to you quite frequently across the most number of keywords are actually other products that you sell. This is the orange version. I’ve got the pina colada, so like that makes sense. That’s what happens at retail as well. Your products are close to each other, but the other thing that you start to see is like, Holy crap, that product that is competing, I actually I don’t see them in Walmart, I don’t see them in target, but they are competing. Like that’s actually kind of surprising to me. And then what you can start to do again, we do this dynamically. We own the patent on it. But I think anyone could kind of like conceivably do a of the formats version of it, which is like we’ll find if, if Amazon effectively sees this other product, I don’t think I have another one here with me, but I’ll just tell you like a, Element is another electrolyte.

John Lebaron 00:43:38  And maybe I don’t know if it is. I haven’t looked at this specific product, but think about, like, element or liquid IV or, you know, one of those types of products and what you kind of are theoretically saying is like, okay, Amazon is seeing these as substitute world replacements because across the most number of keywords, it shows both products organically next to each other. And so Amazon is basically showing or inferring these are kind of substitutable replacements. So what you want to do is like well what are all the organic keywords on which element is is ranking on? Because in theory, relax should be ranking on a lot of those same keywords because Amazon is showing them a substitutable replacements. And that’s again, like just like the data behind that is like, oh gosh, there’s a bunch of like Spanish keywords. I should be ranking on that. I’m not because element is ranking on those or like electrolytes for perimenopausal women over 45. I should be ranking on that because element is ranking on those as well.

John Lebaron 00:44:34  And so that is like, well, you should start bidding on those keywords as well because you will start to improve your organic rank. Now that paired with that like algorithmic bidding system is like, we know, hundreds of keywords on which you as a product should be ranking organically. You have what we call destiny. You are destined to win on those that subset of keywords. You have high win ability and fine. Let’s just like if that’s the hypothesis, that you have a high win ability on electrolytes for menopausal women over 45, if that is the keyword. And let’s just say it’s driving 41 clicks a day, fine. Let’s start bidding on that keyword. And maybe the keyword for maybe the bid on that keyword is like $0.26, whereas electrolyte is like $7 a click. So that’s kind of like the math behind what’s what’s happening in in our Destiny software. Why have we been so effective is you start to bid. Let’s start the benefits $0.26. Let’s start the bid at $0.07. And let’s let it go for, like, I don’t know, an hour or two hours.

John Lebaron 00:45:38  If you don’t get any impressions, raise the bit from $0.07 to like $0.15. And let’s let that run. If you still don’t get any glance views or impressions, fine. Let’s let’s raise the bid. If the average of 26, let’s raise it to 22. Okay. Now we’re starting to get some bids. Let’s hold it. This is the algorithm. This is all the rules built into it. Let’s hold it. If I start to get views but no clicks, probably need to raise it. Okay, now we’re up to $0.23. So $0.03 cheaper than the median. But like or the recommended bid but fine. Let’s hold it okay. Now I start to get clicks. Well if I start to get clicks but I don’t get conversions okay. Let’s just try a different keyword. Maybe the maybe the AI was wrong. Let’s, let’s, let’s not do this. But we’re making more than 13 million bid changes a day across this methodology. And what you start to see is like we’re dramatically spending less, both from a price per click, but as well as a what was the strategy before? Oh you were you were spending $7 a click and you weren’t getting conversions.

John Lebaron 00:46:34  Well, you didn’t have one ability on that because maybe your reviews aren’t as strong or your price is more expensive as a premium. Like, let’s build your way up. And what we start to see is, like, if you looked at our brands versus the digital shelf, oftentimes we are we are ranking on more organic keywords than the competitors, often by a function of like two x to ten x. And it’s it’s not black hat. There’s nothing shady about it. It is just mapping out where you have like win ability. And and I think it’s just a glorious thing. You’re just creating annuities for these brands that are owning keywords. And then again, there are not a lot of sexy keywords. Maybe they’re in Spanish, maybe they’re like long tail stuff. But the aggregate of it is like, you get ten clicks here and 12 clicks here and whatever. But again, the beauty is because you have inherent ability on those keywords. Your conversion rate on those keywords also improves. And it starts to create this like virtual cycle, where Amazon actually starts to feed you more keywords that it thinks you might actually rank for.

John Lebaron 00:47:35  And I guess the final kind of denouement on this full circle is like, okay, well, like, what is the Roas on that? Well, there is no Roas because you didn’t spend anything on it. I mean, I guess you did in the beginning, but like in the end of the day, you’re starting to get sales on things you’re not advertising for and that that is never going to show up in the Roas report. And so I think at some level, you have to be willing to divorce yourself to spend belief on the like, conspiring infrastructure and just take a step back and be like, okay, but like, where am I ranking organically that I was not two months ago or six months ago or six years ago? And wow, these are now creating. And I guess I did advertise five years ago on that keyword. And then it became just like this thing. And by the way, we call winning and winning in the top four. So when number and we monitor this like nonstop and so when it drops to five you’re no longer winning Fine juice the ad spend.

John Lebaron 00:48:26  Let’s see if we can get you back up to to winning territory. Or go chase another that you’re winning seven on that we want to get up to four. And so I think it’s just a a testament to again that hard work and being willing to to math it out and take that data science advantage and be willing to test and be willing to admit like, okay, this is not working. Let’s back it off. And we’ve got another 150 or 2000 keywords in the queue. And let’s, let’s burn our way through this and see if we can improve it. And I would just say that’s one motion on the traffic. But as you work on conversion, it’s a super symbiotic relationship, as I’m sure everyone on this podcast knows. But but we start to see some pretty phenomenal gains.

Josh Hadley 00:49:06  Yeah, John, I love everything that you dove into there. And I think like one of the biggest advantages is like the years of experience have compounded into being able to create this type of software and these patents that, are enabling you to take all of these rules, things that you’ve learned.

Josh Hadley 00:49:26  Put them into a system and be able to like ten x your productivity. Be able to do more with less. And I think that’s what. When people come and work with any of your tools, and I love that you’re starting to like separate those out for, you know, the common, you know, public that doesn’t have a brand relationship with you. Right. And so it’s going to be interesting to see how your guys’s brand continues to unfold as you guys continue to work with more and more sellers and across many different platforms. We only talked about Amazon today, but you guys touch so many other different omnichannel platforms that I think it makes it super impactful.

John Lebaron 00:50:04  Yeah for sure.

Josh Hadley 00:50:06  John, as we wrap things up, I love to leave the audience with three actionable takeaways from every episode. So here are the three actionable takeaways that I noted. You let me know if I’m missing something. But action item number one. the first and foremost, you have to be in stock, right? That is the the the Bible rule number one for any seller on Amazon, which is always be in stock.

Josh Hadley 00:50:30  Right. Because I think everybody has seen what happens the day you go out of stock. If you’re out of stock for more than a couple weeks, your competitors begin taking over, and then Amazon starts collecting some bad data against you saying that, hey, we’re seeing zero sales, so your ranking begins to fall. There are countless stories of brand owners that have literally seen their ass in completely get ranked just by being out of stock, and they’ve never been able to recover. So an important thing to focus on is like, do you have a good supply chain strategy and forecasting behind you? And if that’s not something that you’re you’re actively pursuing or sleeping on, I think that’s the foundation that you have to build upon. Because if you don’t have that first foundation, like any shiny, gimmicky like marketing tactics that you’re going to employ will only work temporarily if you’re always battling. Getting products in stock at Amazon.

John Lebaron 00:51:30  Totally.

Josh Hadley 00:51:31  Action item number two is working on your conversion rates for your product. And this is something that I think, again, people don’t spend enough time on.

Josh Hadley 00:51:41  And the number one conversion rate optimization lever that anybody can impact is that main image. And we have seen this time and time again where some of the top brands are testing their main image, like 20, 30, 40 different times. And so it might be cute to think that, hey, well, I ran this pick Foo poll and I tested this one main image and I did beat the competition. So I think I’m good. But what I’m seeing from some of the top and the best brands and is everybody has heard you John, like you guys are testing thousands of different data points here. And so if people are testing at that level, how are you making sure that your testing is next what it currently is today to make sure that you’re squeezing every little piece of margin and percentage increase above and beyond whatever the competition is doing. That’s what’s going to say. I think the brands apart from today, from the brands that are winning three years from now.

John Lebaron 00:52:45  Yeah, totally.

Josh Hadley 00:52:46  My third and final action item here is focusing on your PPC listings.

Josh Hadley 00:52:52  and, and your rankings at the same time. One of the most important things you uncovered there is like, it sounds like one of the best strategies you guys have employed is really going after those long tail keywords and bidding slowly. Maybe bidding at a lower range to see. Hey, how many impressions can I get at this at this rate? What about this rate and continuing to increase. Again, this is all done via software, but increase it till you’re getting the impressions that you need. Then monitor. What am I doing? How am I performing on the organic side? So I think the biggest takeaway here is make sure when you’re running your PPC campaigns that you have a direct correlation to. How am I ranking for those keywords? And if I spend more? Am I increasing my ranking or not? Because if it’s not, then you’re probably just wasting a whole lot of money and it’s probably a conversion issue. so lots of things to dive into there. But John, is there anything else that we did not talk about, that you think the audience needs to hear today?

John Lebaron 00:53:57  I don’t think so.

John Lebaron 00:53:57  I think maybe there’s just some slight, you know, updates on the takeaways, like one is I’m not an advocate of you should always be 100% in stock, but I am an advocate of like, optimize your in-stock rate to the financial things that, you know, levers that you want, because sometimes going from 98 to 100% might only improve revenue 2%, but it might create cash flow implications or profitability implications of like 10%. So the magnitudes, you know, staying in stock is very, very expensive. But I think getting clear around is the optimal stock right here 97% or 94% or 99%. And being like accountable to that, you know, optimization. And then I would say, you know, on the conversion side, yeah, there are a bunch of other levers, even outside of images and titles and bullets and A-plus content coupons. Subscribe and save deals and bundles. There’s a lot of those other kind of pieces that you want to be able to look at and benchmark against of, like what is actually driving an outsized return in terms of that optimization.

John Lebaron 00:54:58  But other than that, I mean, yeah, we could talk forever on a lot of this stuff. It’s super exciting. We’re passionate about it. And and I hope we’re able to provide some value today to your listeners.

Josh Hadley 00:55:06  Yeah, John, I love your in-depth knowledge here of of the whole Amazon platform. Really well spoken. final questions that I ask every guest. So question number one, what’s been the most influential book that you’ve read and why?

John Lebaron 00:55:18  Oh my gosh. there’s been so many good ones. I think probably the theme for today would be like Atomic Habits. that’s a James Clear book. He came and spoke at accelerate a few years ago. I had already read the book. I think I read it again or listened to it again after that. but I’m a huge, you know, disciple, I guess, of, like, breaking things down to their atomic structure and making slight changes that get magnified, in a bigger macro way.

Josh Hadley 00:55:43  Awesome. That is a great book recommendation. I have read it and, wholeheartedly support it.

Josh Hadley 00:55:49  question number two. What’s your favorite AI tool that you’ve been using and how have you been using it?

John Lebaron 00:55:54  Oh my gosh, there’s so many fun ones. We literally have tons of slack channels dedicated to a lot of this. we’re enterprise users across a lot of the different LMS. I would say like fun, like guilty pleasure. One is lovable. it’s just like, if you like thinking through how to vibe code across UX, UI or micro apps or things like that. For me, it’s helped speed up the way that I examine trade offs in the user experience or in the journey. We use it for internal tools. We use it for external tools. We have full fledged like UX, UI, designers and obviously devs and things like that. But I, I think the speed of, trade off and, and the speed of like, conceptualizing what you’re trying to solve for in a given flow, doesn’t have to be actual software, I think is very, very valuable. And it’s been a fun one for me.

Josh Hadley 00:56:44  Awesome. All right. Third and final question. Who is somebody that you admire or respect the most in the e-commerce space that other people should be following and why?

John Lebaron 00:56:52  I mean, it’s weird. I wouldn’t say like some of these people are like in the e-commerce space. But if you think about like even Sam Altman, if you think about I think it’s more just like AI, right? Or even if you think about like the All In podcast, those are like e-commerce specific types of podcasts, but those are some of the ones that I listen to a lot or go back into either on X or whatever and just think through like the world is changing so fast. And what are the do dynamics? What are the constraints, what you know and honestly, like it’s so hard to keep up. I don’t even know where open AI will be by the time this airs, but the pace at which they are partnering, innovating, releasing, the time of this recording is barely, you know, launched their new browser.

John Lebaron 00:57:34  we’ll see what goes from there. But it is a scorching, feverish pace. What a time to be alive. so I don’t know. That’s what I would say. Almost anything focus on AI is is super exciting and kind of like the the dynamics and how it’s shaping the world. are some of the podcasts that I’m most excited about right now and, and pieces of content, thought leaders in that space.

Josh Hadley 00:57:55  Totally agree. You never know what, what new announcement we’re going to get tomorrow. So, John, this has been a pleasure. And if people want to learn more about you, they want to follow you. They want to reach out to you or pattern. Where’s the best place to do so?

John Lebaron 00:58:09  Yep. You can go to LinkedIn and find me. You can email me I’m John. Com. don’t spam me, please. And then, yeah, if you just go to pattern.com and any of our social channels, I think, find your way around. I think you would hopefully what you would find from us.

John Lebaron 00:58:23  We’re not a super salesy, kind of like hard push culture. We love helping people. We love helping explore whether it’s going international, whether it’s looking at TikTok, whether it’s it’s looking at other domestic marketplaces, whether it’s just a challenge dealing with unauthorized sellers, sellers or grey market or parallel import or any of that sort of stuff. hit us up. We love we love chatting. We love helping brands kind of regards as they partner with us or not.

Josh Hadley 00:58:45  Awesome. Well, John, appreciate your time today. Thanks for joining us on the show.

John Lebaron 00:58:49  Thanks so much, Josh. Appreciate it.

MC 00:58:50  Thank you for listening. Visit Ecomm breakthrough com for more information. If you’ve enjoyed today’s episode, the best way you can show your appreciation is by clicking the subscribe button and quickly leaving a review. See you again next time!