Back for another round on the Ecomm Breakthrough Podcast is Michelle Barnum Smith, the founder of Social Sellers and one of the most trusted voices in the TikTok Shop space.

Michelle Barnum Smith is an award-winning marketing strategist with 25+ years of expertise. A recognized Amazon and TikTok Shop expert, she’s launched 100+ brands and trained 1,000+ sellers worldwide. Featured in Forbes, Business Insider, and CNBC, Michelle is a Top Performing TikTok Shop Partner leading the charge in social commerce success.

Highlight Bullets

> Here’s a glimpse of what you would learn….

In this episode of the Ecomm Breakthrough Podcast, host Josh Hadley speaks with TikTok Shop expert Michelle Barnum Smith about the challenges and opportunities of selling on TikTok Shop. Michelle highlights that only 1 in 30 brands survive the cold start phase, emphasizing that Amazon seller tactics don’t translate to TikTok. She stresses the importance of top-of-funnel content creation, genuine creator relationships, and a long-term brand-building mindset. Success requires understanding TikTok as an entertainment platform first, investing in content testing, and committing fully rather than treating it as a casual sales channel.

Here are the 3 action items that Josh identified from this episode:

Timestamps:

00:00:00 The TikTok Affiliate Landscape
Only 20,000 of over 2 million TikTok Shop affiliates generate more than $5,000 a month in GMV.

00:01:04 Introduction to Michelle Barnum Smith
Host Josh Hadley introduces guest Michelle Barnum Smith, an award-winning marketing strategist and expert in TikTok Shop.

00:01:42 The Ever-Changing World of TikTok
Michelle emphasizes that TikTok’s rules are constantly moving, requiring continuous adaptation and collaboration to succeed in marketing.

00:02:32 The Biggest Challenge for Brands
Josh asks about the primary obstacles brand owners face on TikTok Shop and what separates success from failure.

00:03:26 Why Most Brands Fail
Only 1 in 30 brands succeed due to overwhelming, unhelpful information and a lack of real expertise from TikTok corporate.

00:05:25 The Creator Saturation Problem
With over 2 million affiliates, top creators are inundated with requests, making the old playbook of creator outreach ineffective.

00:07:04 The Future of TikTok Shop
Josh asks for Michelle’s prediction on the platform’s future, considering its new US ownership and changing algorithm priorities.

00:07:23 Understanding the Algorithm’s Motivation
Michelle explains the algorithm is shifting back towards user entertainment and discovery, rather than just pushing shoppable content.

00:11:07 Why Sellers Must Be Users
Sellers need to use TikTok to understand the platform’s culture and algorithm, just as they would on Amazon.

00:12:52 Going “All In” on TikTok
Brands must be fully committed, treating TikTok as demand generation and being prepared to lose money for a year.

00:14:51 Why Amazon Sellers Struggle
Michelle argues Amazon sellers are spoiled by high-intent traffic and often lack the mindset for TikTok’s demand generation model.

00:15:51 The New Playbook for Success
Josh asks for the new playbook, covering the three types of content: creator, branded, and AI-generated content.

00:17:41 It’s About Content, Not Creators
Success now depends on a strong content strategy that aligns with the algorithm, similar to running modern Meta ads.

00:22:41 Owning Your Top-of-Funnel Content
Brands must create their own top-of-funnel content focused on entertainment, education, and controversy to build brand awareness.

00:24:57 A Tactical Breakdown for Brands
Josh asks for tangible tactics on how to create top-of-funnel content without hiring a large team.

00:25:29 Where Creators Fit in the Funnel
Michelle clarifies that creators are for middle and bottom-of-funnel content, while the brand must own the top.

00:30:42 How to Research Content Ideas
Michelle demonstrates how to research top-of-funnel content by searching relevant hashtags and analyzing what the algorithm favors.

00:34:05 Using Marketing Accounts for Testing
Brands can use up to four additional marketing accounts to test different content angles without risking their main brand’s image.

00:42:26 Top-of-Funnel KPIs
The key metrics for top-of-funnel content are what the algorithm values: view time, completion rate, comments, and shares.

00:45:45 Actionable Takeaways
Josh summarizes the episode’s three key takeaways: mindset shift, building creator relationships, and defining your brand’s story.

00:51:28 Lightning Round: Influential Book
Michelle recommends “The E-Myth” for its lessons on building systems and working on the business, not just in it.

00:52:16 Lightning Round: Favorite AI Tool
Michelle recommends Higgsfield for its ability to test and compare different generative AI platforms for content creation.

00:53:15 Lightning Round: Who to Follow
Michelle advises getting outside e-commerce echo chambers and listening to experts in other areas, like Meta advertising.

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Tools and Websites
“TikTok Shop“: “00:00:00”
“Meta Ads“: “00:20:56”
“GMV Max“: “00:27:29”
“TikTok“: “00:30:42”
“Claude Data“: “00:29:54”
“CMOs”: “00:29:54”
“HiggsField“: “00:52:20”
“Social Sellers“: “00:54:33″Books
“The E-Myth“: “00:01:04”
“Building a StoryBrand by Donald Miller“: “00:39:00″Videos
“Hadley Designs TikTok Content“: “00:36:32″Concepts, Strategies, and Notable Statistics
“1% of Creators”: “00:16:28”
“Content Strategy”: “00:21:50”
“Top of Funnel Content”: “00:22:41”
“Content Testing at Scale”: “00:20:56″Additional Mentions
“Hashtag: #ScreenFreePlay”: “00:31:38”
“Podcasts”: “00:53:25”
“Michelle Barnum Smith on LinkedIn“: “00:54:33”Episode Sponsor:

This episode is brought to you by eComm Breakthrough Consulting where I help seven-figure e-commerce owners grow to eight figures.

I started my business in 2015 and grew it to an eight-figure brand in seven years.

I made mistakes along the way that made the path to eight figures longer. At times I doubted whether our business could even survive and become a real brand. I wish I would have had a guide to help me grow faster and avoid the stumbling blocks.

If you’ve hit a plateau and want to know the next steps to take your business to the next level, then email me at josh@ecommbreakthrough.com and in your subject line say “strategy audit” for the chance to win a $10,000 comprehensive business strategy audit at no cost!

Transcript Area:

Michelle Barnum Smith 00:00:00  On TikTok right now, there’s over 2 million creators. And what I’m saying. TikTok affiliates, not just people posting content, but TikTok shop affiliates and only. 20,000 of those are doing more than $5,000 a month in GMV. Let that sink in for a minute. That’s what we call L2 and higher. That’s what they’re called. Our L2 is how the the rating system on TikTok works.

MC 00:00:25  Welcome to the Ecomm Breakthrough podcast. Are you ready to unlock the full potential and growth in your business? You’ve already crossed seven figures in sales, but the challenge is knowing how to take your business to the next level.

Josh Hadley 00:00:39  There’s a massive gap between the brands that are making real money on TikTok shop and everyone else right now, and it comes down to a few specific tactics. And guess what? Today’s guest has the answer and the tactics for you. Welcome to the Ecomm Breakthrough Podcast. I’m your host, Josh Hadley. I scaled my own brand from 0 to 8 figures in sales, and now my mission is to take it to over nine figures on my journey to nine figures, I bring you the unfiltered conversations with the smartest minds in e-commerce.

Josh Hadley 00:01:04  Past guests include Ezra Firestone, Kevin King, and Michael E Gerber, author of The Myth. Today, back for another round on the Econ Breakthrough podcast is Michelle Barnum Smith, the founder of social sellers and one of the most trusted voices in the TikTok shop space. Michelle is an award winning marketing strategist with over 25 years of expertise in recognized Amazon and TikTok shop expert. She’s launched over 100 brands and trained over 1000 sellers worldwide. She’s been featured in Forbes, Business Insider, and CNBC. Michelle is a top performing TikTok shop partner, leading the charge in social commerce success. With that introduction. Welcome back to the show, Michelle.

Michelle Barnum Smith 00:01:42  Wow. Thank you. And like quite the introduction. And can I just say that I don’t I don’t think it’s fair to ever say that. Like I have all the answers. Like I try to surround myself with smart people such as yourself. And I think together we’re like, we have to crack this code every single day. Because if if there is not one singular truth when it relates to just marketing in general, but definitely with TikTok is that the goalposts are constantly moving.

Michelle Barnum Smith 00:02:08  And so we have to keep a keep a steady eye on the horizon kind of a thing and rely on each other to help us to, you know, see what’s coming, what’s working, what’s what’s shifted. And so I love I love being able to have these conversations with other smart people so that we can continue to to point the way and be like, okay, this works today. Let’s go. You know?

Josh Hadley 00:02:32  Yeah. No, I totally agree. And that that’s one thing that on TikTok shop things continue to evolve so quickly. Maybe not as quick as AI is evolving right now, but it is still moving ridiculously fast on TikTok shop. And honestly, what was working in 2024, frankly, like, isn’t really working right now in 2026. And so we’re going to be diving into some of those things like what actually is working today, some of the things that worked in the past but no longer work today. And what to actually implement in your TikTok shop strategy going on right now? But Michelle, as we get into today’s conversation, I think the biggest thing is like people want to have success on TikTok shop, but it’s always easier said than done in your conversations with hundreds of brand owners, what do you see? Like, what’s the biggest challenge that brand owners are faced with right now? And what’s the difference between those that are succeeding and those losing or not having success on TikTok shop right now?

Michelle Barnum Smith 00:03:25  Yeah.

Michelle Barnum Smith 00:03:26  Gosh. So let’s let’s talk about some stats shall we. So 1 in 30 brands and that’s generous actually succeeds gets through cold start on on TikTok shop.

Josh Hadley 00:03:38  1 in 30 or 1 in 60.

Michelle Barnum Smith 00:03:39  Did I say 1 in 30. Yeah. Like 1 in 30. Yeah. So one. 1 in 30. That’s still generous. That’s still generous. And that’s that’s from TikTok. Corporate okay. Shop corporate. So they’re very concerned about brands and they as a corporate organization. Can I say this on your podcast? They’re terrible at really educating and empowering brands to succeed on their platform. Like they throw so much information, new baby, new sellers that it’s just death by information. You know, anybody who’s dared to actually, like, register their shop with their real email address can vouch for this. In fact, when I when I train people on how to, like, get started on TikTok, the first thing I say is like, don’t use your real email address. Like use like a throwaway account that you don’t care about because you will be just like spammed 70 times a day with content from not just TikTok shop, but TikTok ads and TikTok.

Michelle Barnum Smith 00:04:30  So in general, you know, statistically speaking, like those, what’s getting in the way of sellers being successful is almost too much information, but not necessarily helpful information. Right. And and also, can I also say this that TikTok shop. I have yet to meet a TikTok shop employee that actually knows how to sell on TikTok shop. Many of them don’t even have access to the platform itself. Can we let that sink in for a second? Add to the equation that there’s always constant movement, like reorganizations going on, hirings and firings. Yeah. Bless their hearts. They’re just they’re just kind of sharing what they’re being told to share. And so it kind of relies on us who are in the trenches day in and day out to be like, somebody do it. That’s cute and all. And I know that they want you to join this like launch community and lark, but like, it’s just that’s not going to be helpful to you actually. Sorry. Sorry if I’m, like, the bearer of bad news in that.

Michelle Barnum Smith 00:05:25  And I love my TikTok corporate friends. I know that they’re doing their absolute best to help people, but they’re completely overwhelmed. Add to the equation that on TikTok right now, there’s over 2 million creators. And I’m saying TikTok affiliates not just people posting content, but TikTok shop affiliates. And only 20,000 of those are doing more than $5,000 a month in GMV. Let that sink in for a minute. That’s what we call L twos and higher. That’s what they’re called. Our l tos is how the the rating system on TikTok works for creators. It’s just it’s reaching a point of impossibility to just rely on creators to wrap your brand and wrap your products like they are. So anybody who’s doing and having any kind of success on the platform as a, as a, as a creator, they’re inundated, their inboxes are completely. So they just ignore them. You know, it’s it’s it’s spam for days. And so brands rolling in fresh out of the gate and using the old playbook. I wrote the old playbook two years ago.

Michelle Barnum Smith 00:06:26  I was one of the first say, hey sellers, you know, marketplace sellers, especially Amazon. Where’s my Amazon sellers at? Right. Like, you don’t have to be creative. We got that. Like, that’s one of the beauties of TikTok shops that you can roll in and connect with creators. And there you go. Bada bing, bada boom. You know, like it’s not. That’s not it. The playbook has shifted. And I’ve spent I’ve had a like a come to Jesus with myself in the last in the last six months to just be like, all right, back to the drawing board. Like if I have disappeared, it’s because I’ve been in my mad scientist laboratory. Like just reevaluating everything, even re-evaluating Tick Tock Shop and its viability, quite frankly. Like is it.

Josh Hadley 00:07:04  What’s your what’s your take on that then what do you think the future holds for Tick Tock Shop? Like is this place going to be around? Do you think that eventually, like now that it’s changed ownership to a US entity, like do they just prioritize TikTok shop as a whole and sales just like come to a crawl? Like what your what’s your prediction?

Michelle Barnum Smith 00:07:22  That is so interesting.

Michelle Barnum Smith 00:07:23  It is really interesting because when I heard about the, the basically the division of what what did the buyer group in the United States actually get in the deal? Most social media platforms monetize by their algorithm, right? Like they are selling time on site. Right. That’s their motivation. That’s the motivation of any social media algorithm, whether that is TikTok, YouTube, meta, Instagram, Facebook, Snapchat, whatever. Like that is what social media platform is selling to advertisers. Now, when you separate ownership of the algorithm from the advertisers, what is the motivation of the algorithm then? Now we can go down political conspiracy theory rabbit holes if we want to on this podcast, but that’s probably not helpful. But, you know, the buyer group is definitely more interested in the conversations that are happening on TikTok versus selling. Right. So I think to a certain degree, the integrity of the platform is actually being protected from becoming a QVC and HSN. Like if we remember what happened, the algorithm, like the content on TikTok, has had such a swing to it in early 2024.

Michelle Barnum Smith 00:08:34  We saw that when once TikTok shop launched late, like September 23rd of of in the US, all of a sudden the content your flip became very shop heavy. It was like every other video was an ad. Every other video was that, you know, people were like, whoa, this is, you know, the average user felt a huge just kind of like, almost repelling reaction to it and being like, that’s cool at all. But I’m not here to be sold to. Right. And if we think about that from any entertainment source, whether that’s Netflix or Prime Video or whatever, like Josh what what what platforms, what streaming platforms do you pay for that you have a subscription to?

Josh Hadley 00:09:10  Yeah, Netflix would be the one.

Michelle Barnum Smith 00:09:12  Yeah. And you’re paying good money for that, right? Like I think about Disney Plus and and all the subscriptions that I have and then I and then I’m paying for the privilege to also watch ads. Right. Like there’s there’s some frustration there. But when you’re in the middle of your favorite show and you’re like on the edge of your seat, and then all of a sudden an ad pops up, it’s like, come on, guys, I’m not here for this.

Michelle Barnum Smith 00:09:34  I’m not here.

Josh Hadley 00:09:34  Especially when you weren’t used to it, right? Netflix has always been like, you just binge, binge, binge. And now it’s like interruption. Well, now I’m going to go get up and go get a drink and then get distracted. Something else. And right, maybe I come back, right.

Michelle Barnum Smith 00:09:46  Our family mutes it. Well, and quite frankly, even with Disney+ and my kids are watching something, sometimes the ads are not kids friendly, and I’m like, no, you know, I’m muting, I’m muting stuff. So that same, that same kind of, you know, situation is happening with our, our social media platforms as well. Usually if we were thinking about meta platforms, it’s a little more it’s a lot more obvious that an ad is interrupting our scroll. What makes TikTok still a great platform for selling through is that the algorithm gets to know you and your served products that are relevant to you. It’s not just this random hodgepodge of of stuff. Sometimes.

Michelle Barnum Smith 00:10:21  Sometimes it’s testing you. Sometimes it’s still the algorithm, still trying to see like, well, it’s seasonal. So do you want this random gardening supply, you know, implement or are you gonna scroll past and you’ll never see it again? You know, so there’s still stuff that happens like that. But the algorithm is definitely swung. I feel like back more towards keeping people on platform and and feeding them, you know, relevant content as opposed to just, you know, a lot of shoppable posts. That means that I still see a bunch of lives. And that could be just me, you know? And that’s why it’s so critical. I feel like, and I know I always ask this when I speak at events, but I always ask for a raise of hands to see who in the audience is an actual TikTok user. Because I feel like sellers and I know that sellers are like, you know, no, I’m disciplined. I’m not on social media. It’s a waste of time. It’s a waste of energy, all those things.

Michelle Barnum Smith 00:11:07  And I’m like, but you want to sell on this platform and you don’t understand it as a user. Like, would you do that on Amazon? Are you not an Amazon buyer? Are you not a Walmart.com buyer? Like why? It’s one thing to to not engage with content, but have you ever bought anything on TikTok shop? You know, have you fed the algorithm to get to know you so that you can see how powerful it is? By all means, put all sorts of screen time limits and things like that. But it’s really important for you as a seller to understand, because more and more, it’s not this like I’m busy over here managing my other marketplaces and and trying to keep operations going. TikTok is something somebody else needs to figure out for me. Like, seriously guys, if you are serious about building a brand, not just selling products, not just selling products, but building a brand, you need to understand how the platform works.

Josh Hadley 00:11:57  Yeah. Michelle, I think you said it really well there.

Josh Hadley 00:11:59  It’s it’s about building a brand right now. And too many people are just trying to, like, delegate this, even whether it be to an agency and just be like, make me money over here. And you. I love the stat 1 in 30 brands are successful at least coming out of cold start. And I think like how many brands are profitable. Like I think that number is extremely small. Like maybe like one out of 100, maybe one out of 200 are actually profitable. Like the number of sellers I know that are intentionally losing money on TikTok shop just to get the halo effect onto their other channels, onto their website. Like that’s that’s how that is the playbook for 90% of the people I know.

Michelle Barnum Smith 00:12:37  Totally. And I would say a big part of that is because TikTok makes it extremely difficult to even know if you’re profitable in the first place. And, you know, there’s the transparency there on fees. And what you’re actually paying for is really difficult. That’s another conversation for another day.

Michelle Barnum Smith 00:12:52  That is a whole rabbit hole. But when I sit down with a seller and they’re like, you know, Michelle, we want to work with you. We want to we want to try TikTok like we want to. We want to test it. I’m like, no, no, this this is not. I’m not taking you guys on his client. You got to be all in. You got to be all in on TikTok. And there’s enough proof in the industry at this point. Like, I can understand 2023, 2024, you know, you know, concerns and questions in the marketplace. If, you know, Congress was going to take it down or Trump was going to, you know, say that I can understand. We’re at a point now where I don’t need to convince anybody that TikTok shop is like a real opportunity, right? There’s enough, there’s enough. And barring that, you have the right a good product that you’re bringing to market because it still needs to be the right product and there still needs to be a good fit from a TikTok standpoint.

Michelle Barnum Smith 00:13:39  But if you’re coming at me and being like, yeah, we want to give it a we want to give it a shot. And I’m like, no, no. Like you got to be all in. You got to be prepared to lose money for a year. Right. You got to be prepared for a minimum of that, right? And you’re nodding your head, Josh. But there are so many sellers. You think I’d slapped their mother in the face in front of them? You know, where they’re like, well, it’s not gonna be immediately profitable. And I’m like, bless your heart. Like, this is not demand response. This is demand generation. And demand generation requires content testing, and content testing requires content strategy. And most marketplace sellers do not have the stomach for testing. They’re used to running ads, quote unquote, that are not real ads. They are a cost of sale.

Josh Hadley 00:14:26  Well, it’s just bottom of the funnel stuff, right? It is just like bottom of funnel.

Josh Hadley 00:14:30  You search this high intent.

Michelle Barnum Smith 00:14:32  High intent.

Josh Hadley 00:14:33  Yep.

Michelle Barnum Smith 00:14:34  Nobody has nobody has buyer intent coming on TikTok shop or on TikTok. Nobody. They are there for entertainment purposes. That is why they’re there. That is what they’re doing when they’re going to the bathroom. That’s what they’re doing at a stoplight. That’s what they’re doing with their kids soccer game. They are zoning out, tuning out. They are not there to buy. Right.

Josh Hadley 00:14:50  Totally.

Michelle Barnum Smith 00:14:51  But Amazon. Right. And by all means, be sell on Amazon. But this is why the like I’m coming out swinging this year because I’m like I don’t think Amazon sellers have what it takes to be successful on TikTok.

Josh Hadley 00:15:03  I love it. That’s a juicy title that’s clickbait worthy. Get that on BuzzFeed. Light that up.

Michelle Barnum Smith 00:15:08  People are gonna come for me. But it’s because sellers are spoiled by Amazon doing all the heavy lifting somebody else has done. The awareness generation has done, has gone up the funnel and done the heavy lifting from an awareness standpoint.

Michelle Barnum Smith 00:15:22  And, and and now somebody is coming to Amazon searching for a solution. And, and your job as an Amazon seller, marketplace seller of any marketplace certified by marketplace is to capture and convert, capture them, you know, to get into you get onto your product detail page and then convert them. That is it. That is it. You are not responsible for creating that awareness, for leaning into that education, that differentiation, that you’re not responsible for, that somebody else did it and you’re benefiting from it totally.

Josh Hadley 00:15:51  So, Michelle, as we look at the new like, future of what TikTok shop needs to be viewed as, as a playbook for an e-commerce brand owner, I see it as a massive opportunity. It still is. Can you generate some money and profit in sales there? Yes, you certainly can. But the playbook to have success on TikTok shop is vastly different than the playbook to have success on Amazon. So you’re right, it’s going to require a fundamental shift in your strategy, which, by the way, I would argue any North American based seller, you have so much of a massive advantage than all of the overseas competitors because Michelle just talked about it.

Josh Hadley 00:16:28  The stat is this 1%. Literally 1% of all creators are generating $5,000 of GMV per month or higher, and $5,000 per month of GMV is not even high. But that’s that’s it. You’re competing off of of 20,000 people. So guess what? Those 20,000 people are very, very selective. Especially now the number of brands continuing to come on. Like they’re going to be very selective with who they work with, the brands they work with, etc.. So guess what. They’re probably paying less attention to the overseas seller. That message that is them. Hello dear. I hope you had a wonderful time with family and like but that’s the crap that they get all day long. And those are the bots that they get.

Michelle Barnum Smith 00:17:06  They’re not even looking in their inboxes anymore, bless their hearts.

Josh Hadley 00:17:09  So but the bar is so low. So that’s why I say like, see it as an advantage. But Michelle, I want to get to the real meat and potatoes here. What? Like what does it mean to go all in when you talk to a new brand owner that you’re like, no, you need to be all in.

Josh Hadley 00:17:22  And really, there’s like three different types of content on TikTok. There’s creators that play a role. There’s also branded content, and there’s also a lot of stuff happening with AI. So what is the playbook that brand owners need to say, hey, I’m all in on this for a year. I know I’m going to lose money. What does that look like today?

Michelle Barnum Smith 00:17:41  Yep. So I’m glad you brought up the three types of content, because that’s what we’re going to talk about today because of the stat of, you know, 1% of creators are actually generating revenue. And can I be honest with you, I think some of that a lot of that is by accident. There is not one creator out there that every every throw is a winning pitch, is a slam dunk, is hitting it out of the park. What sports analogies do? Have I not hit? Not every single post is actually generating revenue. So there’s no guarantees that if we even work with and get access to an L4.

Josh Hadley 00:18:09  But hold real quick on that.

Josh Hadley 00:18:12  So I’m curious to get your take on this. I have never seen more people than I have recently that are like L4 creators, big creators that are coming back to me and saying like, sure, I’ll talk about your product, but you owe me money up front for me to even talk about it. And it’s not everybody, but I’ve seen more now. Like that was almost non-existent in 2024, a little bit in 2025, 2026. It’s like, what? What’s what’s changing here? My prediction is like 2027. Like if you want to work with the top creators like no ifs, ands or buts, they’re charging you money up front, just like the influencer deals were.

Michelle Barnum Smith 00:18:45  Right? Absolutely. Because they are. Because everybody’s banging down their door. Because of their GMB numbers. Right. And so they have their pick of brands to work with. So why would they do commission only. I wouldn’t would you. Absolutely not. Right. I would never. Right. So fills my pharmacist face of TikTok shop health.

Michelle Barnum Smith 00:19:03  Right. He charges five grand plus a percent plus. Like, if if we’re doing anything beyond. If we’re water falling content to, like, Instagram or whatever, royalties, royalties. So I mean, and he’s worth it. He’s great. He’s he’s a he’s a great content creator and he’s a great human. But I’ve had the pleasure of working with him and seeing his content not do well. Right. And so if you think that you’re short cutting the line by paying those fees and getting access to those creators, you’re still not. It’s still a gamble. And so really, what it comes back to when somebody is like, well, Michelle, like, I’m working with you. I’m working with Rita. I’m working with joint brands like and, and we’ve set out like, we’re maxing out our weekly outreach, and we’re getting these just, like, garbage responses and our samples, like, like, I can’t, like, I can’t reach the creators I want to reach or like the creators that I’m getting are just, you know, it’s just not it’s not working.

Michelle Barnum Smith 00:19:56  My response to that is, you’re not asking the right question. You’re not. It’s not about creators. It’s about content. It’s about content and content strategy and remembering and and aligning yourself and your product and your offers with the algorithm. It’s about what the algorithm values, not how to get in front of creators. Can we see how that’s a fundamental shift? Right. And I’m a marketer. Right. So I think like this. And so it’s my job to kind of get on this soapbox and kind of throw down a little bit. I feel like my responsibility to educate and to like, can we can we have to elevate the conversation? Guys, TikTok now is more like running meta ads than it is about posting social media content, right? It’s more. And if you think about and if anybody’s tried running meta ads lately, they completely just released a new algorithm for their ads platforms called Andromeda. And guess what it’s like. Guess what? It’s mirroring the whole meta ads community is like pulling their hair out and is frustrated beyond belief because Andromeda is just like the TikTok algorithm.

Michelle Barnum Smith 00:20:56  It’s just like the TikTok algorithm. So the old way of running meta ads, where it’s just basically like small iterations of the same video or the same post over and over again doesn’t work anymore. So even meta ads has gone through a fundamental shift, because Facebook and Instagram are seeing why TikTok so successful and they’re changing their algorithm to meet that. Right. So we have to kind of like pull ourselves up a second and say like, okay, well, it’s about content testing. It’s about content. What is the algorithm value? And it’s about testing and content testing at scale, at scale, which means it’s not fast, it’s not fast, and it’s not it’s not easy and it’s not cheap. So if I talk to a Amazon seller. I’ll just call them out and they’re like, oh yeah, we tried. Meta ads don’t work for us. I’m like, okay, warning. Like, were you driving that traffic to Amazon? Were you driving that chocolate Shopify. Like what was your what was your CTA like? How much content testing did you do? Like what was your budget like all of those things.

Michelle Barnum Smith 00:21:50  Like like if I’m having an advertising conversation with somebody, that same level of conversation now I have on and think about with TikTok and TikTok shop, because that’s the name of the game now is we’re just advertisers. We’re not that’s not we’re not anything special. We’re just advertisers. Right. Which means that we are hated. The algorithms job is to put us in front of our target audience and make us a little bit more viable, and not just interruption style marketing, but like nobody’s on there to buy. What are the what are we there for? So that’s where content strategy comes in. Really critical. And as a brand it used to be that you could you could have you could launch on TikTok, shop just with creators and having other creators wrap your brand, and that’s fine. To a certain extent, you can still do that. But at a certain point, if you’re serious about TikTok and scaling on TikTok, you need to own what’s called top of funnel content for your brand. So if we think about why people are on TikTok in the first place, this aligns with brand top of funnel strategy.

Michelle Barnum Smith 00:22:41  People are on TikTok for I mean, TikTok calls it delight and discovery, but what they’re really there for is entertainment, education, controversy, shock and all news, right? That’s why that’s why they’re there. They’re there for discovery. If they were there to, like, follow their favorite person or see what their grandma is up to you. That’s what Facebook is for. That’s what Instagram is for. Their favorite, you know, following their favorite, you know, creator. That’s very that’s very Instagram. TikTok is heavy into discovery. Like I might see somebody that I follow here and they’re on TikTok. But for the most part like it’s it’s new. And now TikTok even has like a local feature. So there’s huge opportunities opening up this freaking meta. They could have done this ten years ago, and TikTok is just spanking them with local content. Now I’m just like, oh my gosh, where was this? Where? Like you try to search for some cool spot in, you know, I’m going to Austin and I need, like, a cool restaurant in Austin.

Michelle Barnum Smith 00:23:35  I try to search on Instagram like it’s just garbage, right? You have to go to Google Maps. That’s fine. Whatever. No, TikTok owns local content now. Local inspiration. Anyway, I wax philosophical, but if we go back to the reason why people are on TikTok, those five things as a brand, you need to supply those five things, right? Not to sell product, but to build your brand. If you guys take nothing away from our conversation today, let it be that. Let it be that nugget of like, own your top of funnel content. As a brand, there is something educational that you can talk about. Why? What are the benefits of ashwagandha? Why does somebody need stress relief in their life? Like what is what is the angle that you if we’re not selling product at all and we’re just focusing on education, what can you what can you do to educate your audience that you’re a problem, that you’re like, what problem are you in that product solving? And can you just talk about the problem? Can you do that? Can you talk controversy? What controversy is around the problem that your product is trying to solve? What’s something fun, interesting, unique, and entertaining around your product? Right.

Michelle Barnum Smith 00:24:46  So what like kind of taking all of those angles? So, Josh, I asked your permission earlier if we could do Hadley Designs and have a conversation about top of funnel for Hadley Designs. Are you still open to it?

Josh Hadley 00:24:57  Do it. Yep. Let’s do it. Let’s dive deep. I want to hear and I think for like the listeners, I think this is the challenge, right. It’s one thing to have a playbook for creators. It’s another thing to think like a marketing expert, a CMO that is looking at the whole complete funnel and saying like, no, what’s my top of funnel strategy? So, Michelle, I want to get tangible, tactile like tactics here to our listeners of like, go do this today. Here are some great examples. This is how you can spin this up without having to go higher. Ten additional team members.

Michelle Barnum Smith 00:25:29  Right. Because let’s be clear, like creators, if we’re talking, where do creators fit? Creators are not top of funnel. They’re not.

Michelle Barnum Smith 00:25:36  They are middle of funnel. Middle funnel is very product demo, product unboxing, feature benefits, that kind of thing. They’re also really good. They’ll do gimmicky. Hey, it’s this spring spring glow up campaign right now and they’re they’re running a great deal like bottom of funnel urgency pricing. You know those kinds of things deals and offers. But like that’s where creators sit and there’s and there’s purpose for that. So if we think like what is the algorithm value. What does the algorithm care about that. That’s depth of content. And then algorithm also cares about buzz. And that’s where creators come from. And lots of voices talking about the same product. Right. Like that’s those are the kind of the two the two levers, the two y and x axis of success on the platform is depth of content from a top, a top of funnel standpoint, like keeping people on the platform to serve the purpose of the algorithm. Right? Feed the algorithm what it wants, and then also the buzz factor of lots of voices talking about something like, oh my gosh.

Michelle Barnum Smith 00:26:28  So and there’s a lot of that going on on the, on the platform right now. So how do we look at it from a CMO standpoint. And and this is where, you know, when you do your research as a seller, oftentimes you’re going to it’s important to understand that if you’re looking at converting content on the platform, most shoppable posts at this point have ads running to it. Okay, so if you’re looking at data fast, CMOs wherever for looking at converting content and looking at hooks, the KPIs that are being valued by those by those metric sources, if we’re talking GMV max campaigns, which if we’re running shoppable posts, that’s the easiest way to do that, please do it. Jamie Max is last click attribution. Can we let that sink in so we don’t know the journey that that customer has been through. We just know what finally got them to click and purchase. So if you look at your GMV max results and you see product card as one of your top converters, you’re like, Holy crap, we’re getting all sorts of organic sales.

Michelle Barnum Smith 00:27:29  I’m like, no you’re not. That’s retargeting. That is retargeting. You’ve engaged somewhere with the brand on some sort of content hit there, hit a PDP, and now it’s stalking you within an inch of your life, right? That’s the product card. Yeah. Maybe you can excel here in there. But no, don’t flatter yourself. So the but then the rest of the content, we don’t know if that was the first time somebody has ever seen anything about your product or the 50th time, right. So even if we’re looking at shallow data for like top performing content and using that as our inspiration for content creation, it’s still a skewed right. Does this make any sense? Am I just talking to my wife?

Josh Hadley 00:28:03  No. Makes a ton of sense because, like, that’s the thing. Like most people, it’s like the what you’ve heard a million times before, but it’s like, takes people seven times to see something before they actually take action on it. And that is the challenge with TikTok.

Josh Hadley 00:28:16  It’s not just like, oh, I saw this viral video, so I’m buying it. It’s probably and I know anything I’ve bought on there. It was like I had seen that and I was like, that’s interesting. And then I got fed another video from another creator. I was like, oh, okay. Interesting angle. And again, maybe it’s the third, maybe it’s the fourth one that I actually buy on, but it’s that kind of like Rule of Seven that’s like, you don’t know which one it’s going to connect with. And that’s what I think is the power of GMV max. And I think that’s where Facebook’s going is just to be like, look, we’re going to spin this up and we’re going to figure out what gets people at the top of funnel like, oh, okay. Now I’ve, I’ve baited them in, so to speak, into this like they’re now interested in this category. It may not be what actually converts, but when I am ready to for them to convert, this is the video I’m going to send them.

Josh Hadley 00:28:57  And that’s what GMV Max is doing is like. So the video that does generate a lot of sales may not be the first exposure to that brand or to the product, but it is a strong confirming. It has a good conversion rate. So there is an angle that the creator is using that like kind of closes the sale without them having to have like a bunch of CTAs and stuff like that. So yes, but I love that it’s a good mindset shift.

Michelle Barnum Smith 00:29:22  Right? So the closest you can get to this honestly in GMV Vmax campaigns is not. To sort your content by GMB is to sort it by view time. It’s just sort it by product impressions. It’s to sort it by like what other content is feeding my funnel? You know what I mean? And if you if you want to test it, then you can if, if the content is not having ads like GMB has been like, this is a stinker, it’s not converting like, like and throwing it out of the campaign. Then you can turn on like the creative boost on those and I highly recommend that you do.

Michelle Barnum Smith 00:29:54  However, if we’re and that’s once again, that’s just like converting content that’s not necessarily like, you know, that’s that’s kind of like step, I don’t know, 5 or 6 in an otherwise like content strategy process. So that’s why I point out if you’re looking at content, looking at cloud data or CMOs or any of those tools for like, what should our videos be saying? I just want you to understand that the videos that they’re showing are the highest converting, but not necessarily like we don’t know what like what fades in the because it’s last click attribution. Right. So we don’t know. We don’t know what got their attention in the first place. And it was at that video or was it ten videos ago. So I just want to point that out so people understand that it’s not just this like oh, just copy paste, copy paste. That’s a, that’s a tactic. That’s a tactic. But it’s not. Let’s pull it up even further. So I like to do it on my phone because it’s not really helpful to do it on a browser.

Michelle Barnum Smith 00:30:42  But if we were to go to TikTok and just search for relevant keywords or relevant hashtags for your content. So, Josh, you’re open about your brand and almost sellers are not. But if we were to go to your brand, you guys are strong in the screen free space. That is an angle that you are that you guys are using. Like get your get your toddlers off devices. You’re melting their brains like like like get them tactile. Get them, you know, back using products that can actually help them learn, you know, so researching the hashtag screen free play is critical and seeing what does the algorithm favor. So if you go once you open your phone, let’s just do this together. Let’s do it. Now y’all can’t see us doing this, but you can follow along as well. Like, feel free to open your phone and you can follow along. So if we go to and I just got this hashtag because you guys use it on your on on your, on your stuff.

Michelle Barnum Smith 00:31:38  But so you’ve already done a little bit of content research to see like what you know, what angles do we want to take, what content do we want to produce. So if somebody has never gone through this process and you don’t even know what kind of hashtags are keywords like, y’all are keyword. If you’re a marketplace seller, you’re already keyword oriented. Let’s plug some keywords into TikTok. But let’s just start with screen screen, free screen, free play spaces between those. So we’re just going to hit search. TikTok is going to favor shoppable content. First. It’s going to show you shoppable content first. So you you can scroll down and then you’re going to start seeing things. Now it’s going to be really easy to look at something and be like, oh, that has, you know, x number of views, those types of things. If the post is shoppable, let’s not trust views because those views are probably bought. Right. But what’s not typically bought are likes. So just at a glance, I can see that one of the first videos is from June 20th of 20, 2025.

Michelle Barnum Smith 00:32:31  That’s what shows up for me. It might show something different for you, Josh, and it has almost 24,000 likes. Okay, well, something about that is engaging and the and the and the platform valued. Now it is almost, you know, almost a year ago at this point of time of recording this. So who knows if the angle is still relevant. But you can try it. You know, it’s definitely something that you could try. And you can see in my example it’s a carousel. And carousels are really easy from a execution standpoint. We’re not hiring creators. We’re not having to invest in video and video editing. Like, gosh, there’s something that could be put to work here that’s pretty straightforward and really easy to do. It starts with an A and ends with an I like there’s there’s a lot that can be done and put to work here.

Josh Hadley 00:33:14  But Michelle, would you add like a shop link on that like to the carousels or. No. And like have it happy.

Michelle Barnum Smith 00:33:22  Josh, you fancy because you have access to something that most people don’t and that is shoppable, shoppable status, shoppable photos, shoppable images, what’s called not everyday sellers qualify for that yet.

Michelle Barnum Smith 00:33:32  So for you, you can test it. Absolutely. Most people don’t have that yet. That’s not that’s not generally available at the time of us discussing this.

Josh Hadley 00:33:40  So all right.

Michelle Barnum Smith 00:33:41  Way to drop a bomb on making everybody else feel like presents.

Josh Hadley 00:33:44  No, but I’m curious, like if you if it turns into a shoppable video, even though it’s just a bunch of slides, if it turns into a shoppable video. Like, is it harder to get reach? Are you seeing that like, anything with shop related to it is like they’re basically forcing you to like, pay to play at this point. And it’s like, hey, yeah, like maybe include your product but don’t include the product link.

Michelle Barnum Smith 00:34:05  So this is where we’re going to go back to top of funnel, right. So remember top of funnel content is to entertain inform educate and controversy plays a part in that as well. Right. So right now I’m just showing you how to find top of funnel content and not just base your content development based on what our data is telling you, which is last click attribution and it’s mostly middle or bottom of funnel content anyway, right? So as a brand, you need to be creating and investing in top of funnel content.

Michelle Barnum Smith 00:34:32  Top of funnel content typically isn’t going to be salesy, right? If there is a CTA, it’s the very last thing you say you’re showing your product very last, very briefly. It’s just a mention or it’s just like a caption, you know, a caption referral. It’s not like a hard sell. Okay. So in this example of doing research, of seeing what does the algorithm favor in for this keyword. And let’s develop some content ourselves around it. Now let’s talk about where to put that kind of content as a seller. As a TikTok top seller, you actually have access to be able to create you have your main brand account, and then you can create four additional marketing accounts on TikTok. And most sellers don’t. Don’t do this. You can create as many TikTok accounts as you want to, quite frankly, like nobody’s stopping you from doing this. Like, talk to Matt Altman about his his 3000 TikTok accounts that are all run by AI. That’s another conversation for another day. But, but, but you, as a brand in general, have access to five total accounts that you could link to your shop and you don’t have to.

Michelle Barnum Smith 00:35:37  Like if you create just a standalone TikTok account to be able to make anything shoppable, you still have to have meet TikTok’s minimum requirements. You know, content followers, you know, all that kind of things. But if they’re marketing accounts, you can start shoppable posts from day one. So, Josh, in the example of how the highly designs you, let’s say that you have the screen free angle that you’re taking. While screen free has educational elements, it has controversial elements. It has entertainment oriented elements. Right. So if we just look at Hadley Designs and you guys can follow along as we’re talking about this on TikTok, you can open TikTok and follow and and come with me on this journey. So I’m actively doing a CMO strategy with you like right now. Taking you through kind of like a strategic process that I go through with all my clients. And that’s looking at your content. And you guys are like an amazing brand and that you actually have created content. In fact, I think the first time that we met at Market Masters, you guys weren’t this was not linked to your shop.

Michelle Barnum Smith 00:36:32  Correct. And that was one of the first things that I told you was like, Josh, this is a huge opportunity for you guys to take advantage of it, create some content, make shoppable posts, link it to your brand. So if we start looking at and I just popped in here this morning, I didn’t like, I haven’t planned this. None of it. Okay. So if I just look at Hadley Designs on here, we’ve got lots of different amazing top of funnel content. Find like one of the first posts probably posted this morning. Fine motor pre handwriting toddler activity e story. It’s you know and this is right before Easter that we’re recording this. And so it’s very seasonal like it’s subtle. It’s subtle seasonal. You’re not being like hey this is nice. Or you know like it’s like hey look at this cute thing that you can do to help with fine motor skills or your preschooler. Right. Perfect. Top of funnel content. Right. Like it’s very empowering. Is some fun activity that moms can do with their toddlers.

Michelle Barnum Smith 00:37:22  And it’s a and it’s and it’s seasonally appropriate. Right. If we scroll down here’s another great video. Zero prep preschool activity. Looks like there’s a bunch of, you know, like there’s like a little sponge. There’s some paint I don’t want to turn it like click through to any of these because then it’ll be loud and and I don’t want to distract. But so there’s a bunch of these then we have some controversial posts. So a post that’s like PSA toddler parents, you’re the problem. It’s you. So very Taylor Swift of her. Thank you. But is that on brand. Is that on brand? Josh. Becca I know Becca. She’s lovely. She’s the heart of gold. Wonderful. Wonderful person. Like. And I know if she was going to be saying something like this, it would be said with all the love in her heart and from a place of love. But generally speaking, like moms, guilting other moms doesn’t go over well. So this is an example. And if you look at some of the comments and I’ve looked at some of the comments of some of the other, these similar types of posts that y’all have done.

Michelle Barnum Smith 00:38:16  You got Angry Moms in the comments. Thanks for the engagement. But that’s not that’s not really what you’re about, right? And so those moms, if they see your content later in the form of a creator talking about how they designed that, you got to get this. And look how cute this is. They’ll be like, I saw that. And they’re that like that post really pissed me off. Like that really hurt me. Like I’m trying. You think I want my kids brain melting? I’m just trying to survive here. You think I turn on my kids screens because I’m like, you know, like a bad mom? Is that really what you think? Right? That’s not. That’s not the angle that you want. Right? Right. So that’s perfect.

Josh Hadley 00:38:49  Though. So yeah. My question is that. Yeah. How do you utilize that. Because like Donald Miller Donald Donald Miller’s book, you know, building a brand or a story brand, it’s all about like finding a common enemy.

Josh Hadley 00:39:00  Right. And then preaching. It’s like it is a dividing line, right? It’s like, this is a hill I’m willing to die on. There are people that swear by my toddler watches Miss Rachel, and I think it’s the best thing in the world for them. And they’re going to be the smartest person in the world because they’re watching Miss Rachel 24 hours a day, like they are just soaked in YouTube videos and I love it. And, you know, you have the other angle where it’s like, we never allow them to see a screen in their life, right? So like if you’ve got these like two very polarizing things, like how do you communicate that as a brand, right where you are going to. You are going to divide people. Right. It’s like Tesla, right? It’s almost like very dividing at this point.

Michelle Barnum Smith 00:39:38  Absolutely, absolutely. In fact, that reminds me of I was on an MDS call. I was doing a training for the million dollar sellers. And this guy, I don’t even remember his brand, but he sold vaginal suppositories.

Michelle Barnum Smith 00:39:52  And I’m all like, I’m a marketing professional. I’ve been doing this a long time. Like, bring me your hardest questions. Like like, let’s figure it out. You know, that kind of thing. And he’s like, I’m going to hire a dude, a creator, and like his angle. Like we’re we’re just going to have him create content for the brand. That’s just about how much he’s not going to go down on his woman if she smells like trash down there. I was like, oh my gosh. On your brand account. Like, I can appreciate controversy, man. I can from a marketing perspective. But on your brand account. Who are you? Who are you trying to sell to? Who’s your target audience here? Who’s buying vaginal suppositories? It’s not my husband, right? Like it’s not my boyfriend. It’s not my lover. It’s not my partner. It’s me. Right. And you’re going to come at me with that? Are you serious? Talk about controversial, you know.

Michelle Barnum Smith 00:40:42  So, is there a place for it? Is it shock and awe? Yeah. There’s a place for it. There’s a hard line for it, for sure. But is it on your brand account? I don’t think so. I think it’s a marketing account. Marketing accounts are not branded, right. You can brand it whatever you want to. And in this case, like in the case of Hadley Designs, not of vaginal suppositories, but like just in the case of screen free coming at you kind of content. Becca, to other moms who are scrolling through. Looks like another mom. She doesn’t look like she’s she’s coming from a place of authority. She’s a mom who creates. She’s a graphic designer. That’s another thing she is. But she doesn’t appear to be an authority. So if I were you, I would tell you to either hire if you want to go that route. It’s an expensive one, but you can hire an authority figure to speak about screen free. Right. And how they’re melting brains.

Michelle Barnum Smith 00:41:30  You know, screens are melting brains. Y is like like education statistics. Go deep. Like drill it in. Hit it hard. The whole account’s just about screen free, right? And how? Not just screen free. And here’s some alternatives, but screen free. And you are. You are killing your kids, right? You are setting. We. It’s a good thing the robots are taking over because our kids are already, like, brainless, right? Like, lean into a hard if you want to, but it’s not. It’s not you saying that, right? It’s not sweet. Becca saying that and hurting people, right? Another way that you can use your marketing accounts is with AI and generating a variety of avatars to represent that message, you know, is it a doctor or is it a pediatrician that’s sitting there in a lab coat. Is it a nurse? Is it a preschool teacher in a classroom? Is it. You know, and maybe it’s like a Waldorf or a montessori or, you know, not just like the the public school teacher down the street, because bless their hearts, they don’t have the same level of authority.

Michelle Barnum Smith 00:42:26  Right. Government, government employees versus, you know, private school, whatever. So like you can play around with the different avatars and test, you know, those kinds of things. But the KPIs on those, those are not shoppable posts. The content that we’re trying to produce there is just to measure top of funnel KPIs. So top of funnel KPIs, the ones that we care about view time. So the ones that TikTok cares about, right. Because we’re trying to feed the algorithm, we’re not trying to make sales, we’re trying to feed the algorithm so that the algorithm will put our message out there. Yeah. So the KPIs that the algorithm cares about isn’t likes is part of it. But it’s down that’s down there. It’s did they finish the video. Did like the three second whole time. Like how long did they hold their thumb on on the video because they wanted to read what was said? You know, it doesn’t all have to be talking head. It could be a video with text on it.

Michelle Barnum Smith 00:43:16  Right. Those kinds of things. So so it cares about that. So video view time. Did they finish it. Like the view rate. Like the finish rate. They cares about that. It cares about the engagement. Did they comment. Did they save it. Did they share it. Did they repost? You know those kinds of things. That’s what that’s what the algorithm values. So that’s how we look at the success quote unquote of that content.

Josh Hadley 00:43:38  Now that makes sense.

Michelle Barnum Smith 00:43:40  That’s so when so when I tell sellers and I know that this is going to make a lot of people just like, want to roll over and give up because most Amazon Marketplace sellers are like, I don’t want to be in front of the camera, I can’t. They like they don’t create brain content as it is. And if it and if they do, it looks like it came out of Canva. Plus it’s heart, you know, and so having a strategy that is top of funnel strategy. And when you’re looking at agencies to partner with most of the time it is that just okay.

Michelle Barnum Smith 00:44:06  Just the same old same old, you know, factory assembly line type of thing. We’re going to set up your shop and we’re going to reach out to 2000 creators in 2000 creators and 5000 creators and 10,000 creators based on, you know, what your outreach limits are. But what about content strategy, guys? You as the brand really need to own that. You can’t put that in somebody else’s hands. That’s the difference between selling products and building a brand. You have to understand and own that. You need to know what your avatar cares about, your ideal customer persona like you really need to understand what your ICP cares about and what your product solves for them. And Amazon kind of requires you to do that a little bit here and there. And people talk a big game about, you know, understanding their target demographic and problem solving and things like that, because you have to load your keywords into your listing. But it’s not the same when we’re talking about demand generation and really connecting with why people care in the first place, why they need to care in the first place.

Michelle Barnum Smith 00:45:00  And some products are not that heavy, right? Some products are just like, gosh, lighten it up a bit. You know, it’s just a vaginal suppository, but like, does it? But does that make sense from a. We have to elevate this conversation from like creator creators creators to content.

Josh Hadley 00:45:16  Yeah.

Michelle Barnum Smith 00:45:17  And feeding the algorithm. What does the algorithm care about? What does your brand care about and solve those problems in all those different angles? Test all those different angles. You can have a different marketing account for every single angle, you know, and you can you can feed that with UGC. You can feed that with, you know, as a brand, you can create that content yourself and be the face of it. But like if you’re going to come out swinging with controversial content on your brand account, just know what you might be doing in return.

Josh Hadley 00:45:45  Yeah. Michelle, this has been a fantastic conversation. And I think, like, again, it pulls back the curtain of like, this is what it really means to win on TikTok, and this is what it means to go all in on this.

Josh Hadley 00:45:57  And obviously like the playbooks are vastly different. So, Michelle, as we wrap things up today, I’d love to leave the audience with three actionable takeaways from every episode. Here are the three actionable takeaways that I noted. You let me know if I’m missing something here. Action item number one is you need to experience a mindset shift before you jump onto TikTok shop or go all in on it. Understanding that if you’re a TikTok or an Amazon first seller, what made you successful on Amazon is not going to be what makes you successful on TikTok. But the advantage is you now get to, for the first time, actually think about what it takes to become a real brand. Because if you’re just on Amazon and you’re just keyword arbitrage and finding keywords and filling that product and having, you know, low bottom of the funnel PPC campaigns to profit off of that, that’s great, but that’s not a brand. So what you do need to turn into is like put on like your brand thinking cap and say, what do I stand for? And what is the type of content that my customer avatar is interested in? And you need to begin thinking about this holistically.

Josh Hadley 00:47:00  It’s not just a creator play at this point in time. It is more of a demand generation and awareness, and it is something that like you need to be able to look at it as I need to be willing to go at a loss for a year. And that’s a tough pill to swallow for most people. But there is no testing TikTok shop. You have to go all in on this to actually reap the dividends. So that is action item number one. Action item number two is in the creator community that you build. We talked about this 20,000 creators are actually driving the GMV. That’s it. That is an extremely small number.

Michelle Barnum Smith 00:47:34  So they talk.

Josh Hadley 00:47:35  Of all of it. Yeah 2 million creators but only 20,000 actually driving like decent GMV for brands. And not all of it like is that they’re that good. It’s just like they stumbled upon something at some point. So with that being said, one of the first things that you have to do is like build relationships with these creators because they are just one other message away from jumping ship and working with the next brand.

Josh Hadley 00:47:56  So I think what it looks like to build a moat around your brand is you’ve got to like these creators need to fall in love with who you are as a brand, and you need to serve them as such. Because I’ve got 1,000,001 different opportunities hitting them every single day, including your competitors. Oh, 100%. Because like, yeah, Kayla Data, I share it in my presentations. But I also say good luck because I also know these creators jump on calls with my wife every single week and every single day we are engaging in our WhatsApp group. We have contests. We have like we Becca’s sending birthday gifts. Becca’s also like sending anniversary presents and Easter gifts to some of our creators. So like, guess what? Go try to replicate that. If you’re an overseas brand, they’re like the US creators. They’re not going to resonate with that crap. And you’re also not going to understand the customs, the culture of the US. And so you’re going to be out of touch. That is the advantage.

Josh Hadley 00:48:49  But it is extremely hard work, and that is not work that gets you successful on Amazon. So again, it’s a completely different business model. But you have to shift your thinking that way. My third and final action item here is if you do not have a story about your brand, if you don’t have a common enemy that you are up against, you have to find one. The best book I would encourage you to read is that, you know, Building a Story Brand by Donald Miller that is all about like, who is your hero on this, the Hero’s journey? Who is their mentor? And you are the mentor. The brand is the mentor to guide the customer through the hero’s journey. What’s the common enemy you are up against? The brand is there to be that mentor. And so I think that goes back to your point of, yeah, the mentor can’t be the one Pooh pooing on the hero’s journey and and casting shade at the hero on their journey, but it is steering them away from, you know, I guess, like, who that common enemy is.

Josh Hadley 00:49:42  So those are my three action items there. Michelle, anything you feel like I missed there.

Michelle Barnum Smith 00:49:45  The one thing I would add is and to like, provide a sense of relief because I know we’re asking people to do is already so overwhelming. And a lot of a lot of sellers are just going to, like, wash their hands and give up. And plenty do. Plenty do every single day. Plenty just reach a point. Be like, TikTok didn’t work for us. I’m like, you didn’t work for TikTok, you know? But, like, not to not to throw shade on you guys either, because TikTok doesn’t make it easy for you to know what to do in the first place. The playbook is just is old and tired broken at this point. The good news is, is that because of the beauty of the of TikTok and TikTok shop being a self-contained, both like demand awareness and checkout location, is that very quickly you’re able to identify what’s working, what’s not working from a content perspective, that is power, and that gives you not only the ability to iterate faster, to fail faster, but long term.

Michelle Barnum Smith 00:50:36  I know every brand is wanting to be omnichannel, right? Is wanting to own the customer experiences, wanting to like the ultimate destination? Is that that to see right and to succeed at DTC, you have to do all this anyway. So anytime a brand tells me, like, yeah, we tried Shopify didn’t work for us, we tried another ads. It doesn’t work for us. I’m like, it’s because you sell products. You’re not a brand. That’s what you do. Milk that cow for as long as you can and then sell it to an aggregator and move on. But if you can get from a content perspective and figure out what’s working for you, then you can waterfall that content to other social platforms where it will probably produce the same results. Good results for you via ads to your Shopify, to your to your DTC presence. And that is power. So this is this TikTok is just the tip of the spear in the omnichannel journey. And it and it it there’s so much power there.

Michelle Barnum Smith 00:51:23  So if you’re really committed to being a brand then you have to crack this code.

Josh Hadley 00:51:28  Totally agree. Well said Michelle. Final three questions are lightning round here. What’s been the most influential book that you’ve read and why?

Michelle Barnum Smith 00:51:35  So the last time I was on here, like I shared some some spiritual thoughts, but one of the best books I’ve ever read for business is the myth you said at the beginning. But the myth is so critical and so important. We still see that today. Every business owner basically like working that grind and trying to figure out how to build systems instead of just working in the business, working on the business, and I struggle with that day in and day out, right? Like we’re all trying to find. And now we’re putting a gentle AI trying to to trying to find ways to, to make that work. But if you’re if we’re really serious about being a business and not just creating a job for ourselves, then the emails really lays it out really strongly there.

Josh Hadley 00:52:15  Great recommendation.

Josh Hadley 00:52:16  Question number two. What is your favorite AI tool that you’ve been using and how have you been using it?

Michelle Barnum Smith 00:52:20  Yeah, so I’ve been playing around a lot with with obviously AI content because it’s faster to market, it’s faster iteration. It doesn’t require commissions. So as we think about becoming eventually profitable on TikTok, AI is going to play a significant role. There’s lots of different AI, video and and photo platforms out there right now. And the one that I like and this and I’m everybody’s going to have an opinion and come at me. It’s fine because I’m just a baby in this space. But I like to use Higgs Field because it allows me to try different generative AI platforms instead of having a million different subscriptions across a million different AI platforms. I can give a prompt to nano banana in one breath and see seed dance image images generator the next and see which one I like better. Same for video generation, same for script prompting. So I like to be able to test different platforms against each other really quickly, and Hicksville allows me to do that.

Josh Hadley 00:53:15  Fantastic recommendation. Again. Third and final question here for you. Who is somebody that you admire or respect the most in the e-commerce space that other people should be following and why besides you?

MC 00:53:24  Josh?

Michelle Barnum Smith 00:53:25  so I think it’s really critical to get outside of our echo chambers. Right. And one of the reasons why I know the things that I do about meta is because I’m listening to and attending events for Facebook, for Instagram ads for what’s going on, because these guys like these platforms compete with each other. And and so as far as, like what I’m listening to, it’s I’m searching for it’s not one podcast. I am searching for podcasts that talk about these things right now, and it might be from a different angle than what I’m, you know, my current experience in my current like application. But by hearing what’s coming, it’s like being the captain of a ship, you have to have your eye on the horizon, right? Not on the crew. That’s the first mate’s job. Right back to the Smith.

Michelle Barnum Smith 00:54:13  As the captain of the ship, you have your eye on the horizon. You have to be watching for those storms, for those shoals, for those. You know what’s coming. And in marketing, it’s really it’s not like one source. There’s not just one person that has all the knowledge.

Josh Hadley 00:54:23  Totally agree. Totally agree. Well, Michel, this has been a lot of fun. If people want to learn more, they want to find you, follow you, contact you, where’s the best place to do so?

Michelle Barnum Smith 00:54:33  Michelle Smith on LinkedIn social sellers. Com. It’s our website as well.

Josh Hadley 00:54:37  Awesome. Well Michelle, thank you again for your time today.

Michelle Barnum Smith 00:54:40  Yeah, thanks for having me. It’s been great.

MC 00:54:42  Thank you for listening. Visit Ecomm breakthrough com for more information. If you’ve enjoyed today’s episode, the best way you can show your appreciation is by clicking the subscribe button and quickly leaving a review. See you again next time!