Steve Cadigan 5:49

for me, it’s pretty simple. You know, there are a lot of ingredients that are going to go into how you get to one plus one equals 100. But nothing more powerful than building an environment where people can do their best, and where your team can realize something phenomenal together. I got into this world of talent because of my love for sports. And not only as an athlete, do I love competing, but I love seeing how people handle situations. How do you handle being the star? How do you handle not being the star? How do you handle being on a team when you used to be the star? And you’re no longer the star? How do you handle defeat? Victory? What kind of coach gets the best out of you? How do you handle being behind? Are you calm? Are you freaking out? Or, you know, how do you handle your teammates when they make a mistake. And that plays out to a massive degree when you’re in an organization, and there’s so many teams and so many different dynamics going on. But one of the things that I’ve learned is over time is, if you set the right model in place, this is how we’re gonna play this is what’s important to us, this is what we believe in, it requires less hand holding, it requires less, you know, governance, if you just sort of lay it out, and you lead by example, and you show the team, this is how we think we can really optimize, then you’re going to be able to, I think achieved something really, really great. So for example, one of the things that I’m super proud of is the culture we build at LinkedIn, it’s still by many accounts seen by investors by other competitors in the industry that LinkedIn’s culture was phenomenal. We built a brand new industry in the shadows of Google, Apple, Facebook, when they could outbid us out, recruit us and hire us for a while, we were able to do that very successfully. And I think that’s because we had a culture to the point where when we had a sales conference, most of the conversation was about our values, not about what the targets were going to be for the quarter of the year. And that allowed people to come in and say, what is the sales VP going to focus on the numbers? And the answer was, we’re not going to focus on the number, we’re gonna focus on how we get to that. And it’s really, you know, Simon Sinek said, you know, better than I ever, could you, it’s all about the how, and the why. And I think that’s really important. But I will say this, Josh, I gotta tell you, I talk about culture all day. And there’s a lot of non-believers out there. Why? Because they’ve worked in a place where leadership said the culture was this, and they did the opposite. They looked at that as like a trap like poison. And they were so turned off by being in a place where everyone was talking about the culture, but the leaders would do what I say, not what I do. For example, Marc Benioff was quoted recently as saying, everyone back to the office except for me, I really do my best work in Hawaii. So I’m gonna go. And it was just such a great, you know, sorry, sarcastic moment, for those of us on the sidelines, what like, how could you say that mark, like you, they have to do this and you don’t, because now you’ve just, I think really undermined building a great culture. So what I will say, to those of you here who have been burned by culture, or who don’t believe, if that’s how you feel, please don’t tell your people you do care about culture, or you do more harm saying you do when you don’t, then if you just say, Yeah, I’m not really sold on it. So this is how we’re gonna roll. And we don’t, I don’t want to call it culture, or anything like that. And, you know, when I started at LinkedIn, our CEO was the first time he’d ever been a CEO. We’re about 400 people, okay, this is 2009. And he was coming out of Yahoo, and Warner Brothers. And in both companies, he had such a bad experience where they had all these posters on the wall about this is how we behave. And the leaders did the opposite. And whenever he saw culture poster, he looked at it like it was a trap, like someone he was going to have to follow some sort of behavior that he didn’t have any hand in building, or constructing. And so he told me, Well, my first day on the job we’ll never forget, he’s like, do I never want to see a culture poster and he was a non believer. You know, roll the tape forward. That’s a whole nother story for another time. You know, we were walking around the company two years later, and he said, I never thought culture would be our competitive advantage, like how we’re going to beat these other companies that can pay us and, and he goes, I never would have believed that but we built really something magical. So I think it’s a superpower, it takes a little while to get right. And it’s never perfect. And there is no one perfect culture, which is another fun part of all this. Well, culture is right for you, maybe different than the culture is right for me just like, it was all kinds of different team chemistries and sports, right? So, but it is worth checking out, you know, and just sort of say, Where do my where do I and my team? Where do we create the best value? What’s happening is, you know, what time of day? What are we going to dress? How do we talk to each other? How do we make decisions? You know, and by the way, everyone who’s listening right now, whether you’ve talked about culture or not, you have a culture, you’ve already started behaving in ways of, well, who are you sharing information with? And who’s not getting information? Or what kind of office norms are you building, you know, are not building and when are people showing up? And what are they not? Or are you calling people on the weekend, or you’re not calling them on the weekend? There’s all kinds of culture that’s already being established, whether it’s been intentional or not.

Josh Hadley 10:55

Right, Steve, I love that. I think that is such an important message. And you shared so many gold nuggets there that I think, you know, I could dig down a million different rabbit holes right now. But here’s where I think we should kind of like start or begin our deep dive is this as you are working with these startups and these entrepreneurs, you know, our listeners are going to be seven-figure. You know, ecommerce sellers, they’ve already found some success. But building out a team, and reaching a level of scale to get to eight figures and beyond is probably a new challenge for many of them. So if you’ve already got a business where they’ve got money coming in the door, they’ve already proven out the business model, but they need a team in order to scale. Where do you start? How do you know, create a culture? How do you determine what your culture is going to be? And how do you start finding the right people?

Steve Cadigan 11:51

Let me first empathize with the people who are struggling with that. I want to be great. Except I’m not sure I want all the drama of people. Because let’s be honest, like the more people who are smart — well, this is who we are. We are very complex, complex creatures as human beings. When I was at LinkedIn, again, we were just foreign people, like every executive was, I call it a big company refugee like, we do not want to be big, because big means bloated, big means bureaucracy, big means dehumanizing the experience. And we’re all just a bunch of rats in a treadmill. Right? We just don’t want that at all. But at some point, we said for us to realize our destiny for us to change the world in the degree that we want to, we’re gonna need to bring some team members in here because we not have you ever built a billion dollar business? We’re looking around, nope, haven’t done this here. Has this industry ever existed before it has? Okay, so let’s go get some pioneers, let’s go get some people who can give us some adult supervision, if you will, and really help us. And, and that doesn’t necessarily mean by the way an employee could be an advisor, could be an advisory committee. You know, you don’t have to hire those people to really, to really help you. But where I would start is sort of say, Listen, if you want to understand the norms, is I would start getting your team together, the whole team together and say, what is the best part about working here? Like why do you want to work here? In that exercise? It seems so obvious, right? But I spent my whole career Josh in very big companies. And no one ever, you know, we never sat down and said, Why does anyone want to work here? Because we thought the answer was obvious. Because we’re nice. We’re in. We’re doing important work. We treat people right. This is a great team, great culture. We got great leadership, good investors, good destiny. Good financial future, right. The problem is everyone says that everyone says that, right? So we’re nice or friendly beer Fridays, by casual work, you know, really cool, got a good sense of humor, we like you. I’m like, man, every l people hear is blah, blah, blah, beer on Friday, you know, it’s like, that’s it. So what the best place to start is, why does anyone want to work here? Because when you ask a question, it’s not like what our what should be it just sort of, when you ask a question, it’s like going to your teenager and say, let’s sit down and have a conversation, just the walls come up. And everyone’s perception of what culture means is so different. To me. I just tried to keep it simple. What kind of environment can we build where people just do their best stuff? And the challenge with that is nobody has the same answer. It’s always different. What motivates me is different than what motivates you. So once you start asking for simple questions, give me an example. Like, what is it here? Well, I got freedom, I’ve got more autonomy to make a choice. So you’re really open as a CEO sharing information. That’s why I love working here. I love the difference we’re making in the community or the impact or we’re helping people realize independence and financial freedom, whatever it is. The next question that you need to ask once you’ve got a good list of that, because that’s really your culture, what you’ve just answered when you ask the question. The next question is, what assets do we have that really make us unique? Okay, and I’m not saying it’s kind of like, when you’re in elementary school, you don’t want to be different. And then when you get to middle school, you want — everyone wants to be different. Like, I want to be the teenager, that’s totally different. That’s what you need to bring out in this conversation about what unique assets do we have that no one else has. And I sort of translate into, that’s your ticket to getting the best talent in the world. Because the best talent in the world wants to solve great problems. They want to solve big problems, big Darley problems, and they want to make a difference and feel valued. And so you need to draw them in what Honey Do you have, that’s going to attract the bees, that you really want to, to be able to do that. That’s how I get started. You know, some people say culture should be driven top down, some people it’s bottom up, I like to say, you know, if your audience’s the size that you say it is where, you know, it could be maybe anywhere from a small team of five to, you know, a dozen or two, get get the group together and sort of ask them, because what brought them there may surprise you, you know, a, for example, when we were, I was working with a company recently, and I was asking the people like so why or why did you Why’d you come here? And one person said, Oh, I saw on Glassdoor there’s this really great review. Now my brain used to think Glassdoor was just a wasteland of you know, disgruntled people, like just people ripping their former employer. And this person who was great said, “Oh, I went there. And people really spoke highly of this experience.” And I was like, “whoa, okay, that totally re shifted my thinking around, I need to put some assets on Glassdoor to attract some more, you know, good people like this person.” So that’s where I start.

Josh Hadley 16:43

That’s fantastic. I love that question of, you know, why do you like working here? And I love that follow up question of what assets? Do we have? My question would be this, I think maybe an even for myself, I’m asking the question, What assets do I have in our own business? Because if I were to ask our team, why do they enjoy working here? I would say it’s many of the similar things that you kind of mentioned, where people feel like they get to make decisions, and they get to own the results. They have more flexibility. With their time, everything’s remote, they don’t have to go into an office. Right? Those are some of the things that we’ve heard. So now my question is like, Well, okay, so what are the assets that we have? So Steve, like, can you give me maybe some case studies or examples of like, what are those assets that can truly set you apart and be able to, you know, acquire A-level talent that’s attracted to a startup?

Steve Cadigan 17:41

And this is the question everyone’s asking me right now, you know, the whole backdrop to our conversation right now is we have the most complex state of the union of work that we’ve ever had. It’s harder to hire people, it’s hard to hire people with the qualifications that you need. It’s harder to keep those people than ever before. And what I’m you know, and skills are changing faster than ever. So the skills you need today will be different next year and the year after. So, and universities are struggling, we have more universities going out of business than ever before. We have more people deciding not to go to university, we have more people changing majors to the point that the public accounting firms in America have declared that accountants are an endangered species. No joke, look it up. KPMG is like we can’t hire and can’t find accountants. So where I’m going with this, Josh is to sort of say, listen, I think the most important asset for the economy right now is on, I don’t think it’s viscerally and cognitively recognized by a lot of people. But folks are terrified that AI and robots are going to replace them. Okay? And the truth is, all even white collar work is getting replaced at a faster clip than blue collar work by artificial intelligence. Okay, so it’s a moment in time. So what do I need to offer to really stand out and get the best people and not only get the best people, but get the best people to do the best that they can possibly do? And I think that is the opportunity to learn, okay, and I’m not saying hey, are you joining me over here? We’re gonna have a seminar from the local university business school, which is awesome. No, we have to design work to deliver new experiences, new growth, new challenges. And that I think, fuels their security that whatever happens here, if we go under, and most small businesses don’t make it, if we go under, or I get laid off, I’m good, because they’ve invested in me and I’m working on the latest tools, latest, you know, processes and so forth. And that is a big, big component, right? So not only make decisions, but I’m going to get to take on things that on paper, I might not be given the opportunity to do somewhere else. Okay. And this is, you know, we talked a fair little bit. This is the book that I’m in the process of putting together right now. A lot of cognitive science is pointing to the fact that a disproportionately higher amount of energy is produced in an individual when they’re challenged with solving a new problem. And the difficulty with that is, we’ve designed work to prevent that from happening, usually, because the longer I keep doing what you’re doing the same thing, the more confidence I have, you’re going to deliver a reliable and consistent result. But if you ask any executive, when’s that moment, when you had that career breakthrough, it’s when someone took a chance on you that they didn’t know they didn’t have to do. And you’re presented with a new situation, and you’re a little scared, or maybe a lot scared. That was pretty much how I felt walking in LinkedIn was like, I have no right to build a company never done it before. Are you sure you got the right guy, you know, and they’re like, oh, yeah, we got the right guys like, okay. And I have never been so energized and terrified at the same time. So what I would say is, the way to look about framing your culture and your organization to have competitive advantage today is come here, and I promise you, you will learn more in your career trajectory will benefit from that than anywhere else you could go, I might not be able to pay you as much right now, I might not be able to have that fancy Italian espresso machine that other people have, or the onsite childcare center that you can have if you go over there to Google, over the sushi chef and so forth. But I will make you a better person. And I will make you equipped to control more of your future, you know, down the road. And that’s what I was saying. And especially for people who are, you know, in businesses that are helping other people, if that’s your business, well, then your culture should be that. So here’s another duh moment we had at LinkedIn, we finally realized when we asked the question, why would anyone want to work here? We find that after the company been around probably five years before we figured this out, the problem we’re solving for consumers is the same problem we should be solving for employees help people find their dream job, you know, for LinkedIn, and we’re helping people find their dream job, Gosh, darn it, this better be the dream job for everyone working here. It’s our birthright, you know, and so if you’re helping whatever your small business is helping people gain financial independence, you better be doing that for your people. Because when you do, it makes understanding why we’re here that much simpler, you understand?

Josh Hadley 22:18

Yeah, I love that Steve. And I love the principle of, you know, hey, I might not be able to pay you the most. But here you are going to come out ahead because of who you’re going to be able to become because of the challenges you’ll be able to take on. And because of the things that you’ll be able to learn here would be kind of my bounce back to that idea. Steve, is I think that takes an exemplary manager in order to help shape people to truly become better versions of themselves, to help them actually learn and to grow. Because I would, I would honestly say most entrepreneurs are very bad managers, they just kind of say, hey, you know, I just need to get a bunch of shipments into Amazon, I need you to make sure we never go out of stock. I don’t really have like, just just go figure it out. Now, is that a challenge for the other person? It certainly is. But there’s not a regular like cadence or follow up or like goal setting to actually help to see them progress, if you know what I mean. So I guess that would be my question to you, Steve. Like, maybe you know, you disagree? Do you think that all entrepreneurs can, you know, offer that? Or do you think that they need to have a good manager on their team that could actually help these recruits truly become better versions of themselves and learn and grow?

Steve Cadigan 23:44

The answer is the highly unsatisfying one, which is it depends. If you’ve been fortunate enough to hire some people that need very little guidance and oversight and supervision. You don’t need to be, you know, thinking about that all the time, you know, and that’s what I would say like, if you’re in a business that’s changing and growing, man, you better hire people that don’t need a lot of guidance, right? Because that takes the pressure off you as a leader. But I also think this is one of the biggest gaps in Silicon Valley. When I look around, we have what I call battlefield promotions everywhere. And most of us and I was this is probably true most of my career and no disrespect to anyone who’s ever managed me who may be listening to this podcast at some point in the future. Most of my leadership lessons we’re seeing how not to lead, like seeing just people getting yelled at or screamed at or dressed down in a meeting. And I’m like, Okay, I’m never doing that, because that is not going to motivate people. And we have few examples of really, really great people. But those ones that we do have cross our paths we really remember. So I think there is enormous benefit to having someone with those chops. 100% Because that’s the glue. Think about it. Your daily experience in most roles is shaped by the person who’s managing you more than anything. else and there’s an expression in human resources, you join a company and you quit a boss. Okay? So if that person is lonely, I used to always say the worst boss is someone who has power and is insecure, because and has no children, okay, so then have no life, they’re insecure, and they’re gonna steal the credit anytime you do something good. Oh, is my idea, you know, and it’s just like, they’re gonna, they’re like, you know, the human vampires, they’re just gonna suck the energy right out of you. So be you know, be thoughtful, because you know, you’re shaping people are giving you this gift of like, I trust you to steward me to a better place in my life. And if you don’t care about that, like, what’s the point? You know, like, what, really what is the point? And I’ve worked for some monsters in my life. And I hope when you know, when I pass away, people say, Man, I really enjoyed working with Steve, he made me a better person. I got past that. And it’s interesting. You know, Josh, one of the ideas I had for LinkedIn, and I think AI will figure this out in the next five to 10 years. I told LinkedIn, I said, Listen, what if on LinkedIn, people put in who they worked for, okay, okay, I worked at IBM, and I worked for Gina Rometty, or whatever. Now, I could go after time and see everyone that worked for Josh, what happened to their career after, and I can compare that to every leader in the industry, every, you know, I see, wow, everyone that used to work for Josh has got like a 3x, velocity increase in terms of where they went, what they did with their titles, or whatever, or the converse, right? Or Whoa, you know, something’s going on there. Like he’s putting poison in the Kool Aid. These people are just like, you know, dropping out of the workforce after they work with Susan, or whatever, you know. So I think, you know, it is something to be valued. And I think, you know, if that’s not your jam, you know, leading people, and it’s not for everyone. And I will tell you, having worked with major organizations around the world, the number one cardinal sin that every organization makes is get your pen out and write this down, is believing that the tactical technical expert, is the right person to lead a team? Well, if they do it better, they must be good at leading people. No, no, no, no, no. Many people love doing it, but they don’t want to, and they’re not good at and they never will be teaching other people how to do it. And the reason this trap becomes deadly, is because most organizations, revere praise, reward, and put all the compensation behind leadership, not behind individual contributors. So everyone who is an individual contributor who doesn’t want to be a leader thinks that that’s the destiny that I need to follow for me to get all the riches and spoils. And the truth is, it’s not for everyone, it really isn’t. And I’ve seen so many unfortunately, so many careers wrecked, or people get, you know, go off the cliff, and it’s an unrecoverable moment. So what I always try to do is build technical paths, and then managerial paths. So wherever you want to go, you got to find a space for that. And I’m sure most of the field folks, this thing may be a little bit too early in that journey. That’s okay. But just realize it’s not for everyone, not everyone is cut out for that and wants to do that. And that’s okay. That’s okay. If you have, you know, the space for that, you know, maybe they say, This person is really good at that. You’re just going to be an advisor on how people can do it. But you’re not the person, you know, because you demotivate them every time you talk to him. It’s just not. It’s not good. Yeah. Yeah,

Josh Hadley 28:27

I definitely think that for our listeners, it’s going to be very important for you to do a kind of a self introspection of what type of leader are you? Or are you even a leader? Right? Are you a leader that you want to be able to manage a team and help them become the best version of themselves? Or are you just, I only like ideas, and I am just a visionary. I’m very poor at you know, executing tasks, I’m really good at coming up with things. I’m not really good at managing people, I lose my temper real quick, I can’t put up with mistakes being made. That’s just a part of the natural process. And I think that there is an art form in and of itself to be able to manage people well to bring out the best in them. Steve, you talked about one thing here, of you know, if you’re fortunate enough to have hired good people that can be you know, self autonomous up until this point, out of all of your years of experience advising, consulting and working at LinkedIn. How do you find and identify A-level talent that is going to be self autonomous that can think outside the box that doesn’t need a whole book of SOPs just to execute simple procedures.

Steve Cadigan 29:43

I think what you’re really trying to solve for here is two words that are — these sound cheeky but they really are important to try to understand is curiosity and growth mindset. And what you’re looking for in looking at some was experienced, and you’re probably more going to find this in a reference check, and really diving into their experiences. Because everyone’s going to tell you Oh, yeah, I’m curious. Oh, yeah, I’m innovative. uncreative, you know, I’m a, I’m a thought leader. I mean, that’s just not something you could say. So are you really, you know, someone I’d want to hire, you know, like, what do you think they’re gonna say, oh, no, heck, no, please, let’s just end this right now. You don’t want to hire me? And so what you’re looking for is, you know, given the introduction of new technologies, or new businesses or new models, like, is this person playing it safe? Or are they really taking some risks? Are they trying new things, and you try to find examples from that. But, you know, this is where having a really having a good network of people is really important, people whose opinions you trust and respect. And sometimes in smaller organizations, what I’ve done is suggest that people outside the organization that they know are still in the interview loop. So for example, I have friends that run companies, and if they’re looking for a leader, sometimes they say, Hey, would you just be an interview, like, we’re just gonna say you’re important, you know, member of our community, and we’d like you to interview them. And you know, you’ve got to make sure that everything’s confidential, because sometimes they’re in a position where they’re employed and make sure that you’re not gonna let the employer know. But like I said, I think this is a place where checking references is probably the best spot for you to try to surface those capacities and those abilities, right, that this person is, you know, inclined to be a self starter inclined to not, you know, and then you know, and then use a little bit of behavioral interviewing, give me an example of a time when you, you know, saw a problem, and you took the initiative to solve it, rather than just raise your hand and said, I mean, is broken. Versus like, instead of saying it, like every executive says, don’t bring the problem, bring me the problem and your proposed solutions, right? That’s what you want to see the see a pattern of that, if you can, you know, and this can be tricky, because a lot of organizations have been built for command and control, and haven’t asked people to, you know, just solve on their own, someone may have it, but they’ve may or may have worked in a culture that really suppressed that capacity. Right? So you kind of have to, you have to do your homework a bit.

Josh Hadley 32:07

Yeah. Steve, what is your typical, like, hiring process look like? And I asked you this, because, you know, when we had Michael Gerber on the podcast, I asked him the question, how do you go find A-level talent? And he gave a great reference of or analogy of, you know, do you know how difficult it is to become a Navy SEAL? And I was like, No, tell me more. Right. And he’s like, not only is the application process, very difficult, and they’re very selective, but then they have to go through boot camp, right? And he said, Really, it at the end of the day, in order to become a Navy Seal, you have to go through hell and back in order to, you know, actually get in to the program, right, and to make it and he said, So, to our business owners. What is your application process? Like? What is your hiring criteria? Are you just taking any warm body that’s applying just because it’s the first one that you could find? And you need somebody today? Or are you actually making people like go through a very difficult process? So that you know, you’ve got somebody that has the chops to do this job? Yeah. What’s your thoughts on such?

Steve Cadigan 33:13

Yeah, I’m sorry to cut you off? So that’s such an important question, Josh. And I think I want to start by backing up a little bit and say, very few people know how to interview very few people, I train candidates on how to take control of an interview. Because I say, do not expect the person interviewing you at this company knows what they’re doing. And this is the most common trap I see early entrepreneurs make is having an interview and wanting the person to like you, so you’re just you’re talking to them. And the kid is thinking what are they gonna ask me a question here, just like they’re telling me about cooler companies and they’re, they’re moving from, you know, the person looks good, I better start closing them now, before they’ve even assessed whether the person really is capable. So please, please, please. I mean, this is the number one this is like, your destiny is going to be driven by how well this person delivers for you. And this is all about, you know, yes, build rapport. And yes, make them feel at ease, because then they’re gonna, you’re gonna see the most likely you’re gonna see the best version of that person. But you need to get some intel, you really need to get some intel. And so, you know, be prepared with lots of questions. It’s really tricky, Josh, because interviewing in and hiring is kind of an imperfect science, it really is having recruited for 35 years, I can tell you, you know, the only person who’s going to be really good at interviewing someone who’s probably interviewed a lot, which means they probably haven’t gotten a lot of jobs and very few jobs or is their job just to be interviewed all the time. So most people are not good about bragging about themselves. They’re not good at you know, promoting themselves very well. And so you’ve got this really awkward relationship of the interviewer is usually not really that good and the interviewee is not really that good. So it’s kind of shocking that we’re able to, you know, figure this out at the end of the day. So, you know, and the second thing I will tell you is a lot of leaders don’t know what they’re looking for. They Haven’t really thought it through, you know, and they’ve got a job description, which is usually outdated by the time they finished it. And they’re not thinking about, Okay, what’s the next three to five years? What’s the kind of profile I’m looking for? What’s the kind of work that I need done now what’s the work that I’m probably going to do the next few years, I need someone who can grow, and you can learn who can develop. And I call that high learning velocity. That, to me, is the most important skill in the world today. I get asked this all the time on television, other, you know, shows and radio and so forth, Steve, you know, tell our listeners, what’s the most important skill and the most important skill is learning stuff quickly. Because whatever you learn has a shorter shelf life today, that all the scientists and all the researchers are telling us, whatever you learn is going to be less valuable to you over a shorter period of time than it ever has. So what are you going to do about that? Right? And just as a case, in case in point, all of you listeners who had to teach your 85 year old father how to use Zoom during the pandemic, how’d that go for you? Right? Technology is not intuitive. You ask your you know, 18 year old son, about some technical problem, they expect the technology is broken, and it’s not going to work. And they’re going to experiment. My dad is like, why doesn’t this work? I don’t see the icon in the lower left side that has a camera with a red line through it. And you in the app or the window he goes, What’s the difference? And so, you know, we have I think with our youth, and this is why I’m optimistic about the future, I think and expectation that hey, everything’s an experiment, we’re just going to, you know, try to figure it out. So, you’ll build a process that’s, that’s that you feel is showcasing the best of your company. And that is getting the best possible read on this candidate. One interview’s never enough. 10 is probably too many. Get someone outside, you know, get varying points of view. And please, please, please, if you’re gonna have someone meet with multiple people in your organization, please don’t have them ask the same question every time. Because you’re signaling the candidate, you don’t know what you’re doing. Right? Okay, so tell me, why are you here? Why do you want this job? If everyone asks the same question, what’s the point? You tell the first person, okay, we’re gonna go for customer service, and drive. You know, next person, you’re gonna go for tolerance of ambiguity, right? and problem solving. Okay, next person, you’re gonna go for, you know, rapport building, and you know, something else. Just try to get some variability. And then I believe the best way is not to get notes from people, hey, what do you think? Because this is what usually happens, they interview the person. And then I go, and Joshua, we interview the same person, I’ll go to you. And I’ll say, so did you like him? We’re not trying to hire people that, you know, is based on like, it’s like, do you think the person can make a difference here? What were the pros? What were the cons? What are the concerns, and hear it. So that’s generally how I do it, like divide and conquer the key attributes you need for this skill for them to be successful, then have a committee choice at the end. But if you can, if time is of the essence here, so and this is especially true, at a really important candidate you’re going to hire, and this is what I would do, if I was closing a candidate. And then the next person is the CEO, or I’m interviewing the candidate next person to see what I’m going to do. Before I hand that person over, the next person’s asking, can you just wait here a minute, I’ll be right back. I’m gonna go talk to the next person and say, Hey, this, this candidate does these things, I think, really, really well. I’m not sure what’s going on — something happened when they were working at Johnson and Johnson. They didn’t share it with me, but can you go there? Or like, I’m not really sure that they really know how to code in this language. They talked a good game, but I’m not sure. Can you? Can you go at that? You see what I’m saying? So now you’ve got like, we’re honing the nail narrowing the funnel, if you will, on what, you know, concerns we might have, or making yourself more confident. Right. So that’s, those are some ideas. I don’t I don’t like to get too formulaic around it. But, you know, be respectful of the candidates time, like they can’t take four or five days, different days to come visit you if they’re working somewhere else. I mean, there’s only so many, you know, trips to the dentist that they can, you know, offer to their employer to escape, right and be respectful and try not to do it on weekends, either. I mean, that’s family time, right?

Josh Hadley 39:08

Yeah. No, I think I love that my biggest takeaway from that Steve is having a let’s say, it’s a committee of interviews, right? Where, you know, the CEO interviews the candidate, but then maybe your CFO or maybe it’s, you know, one of the other managers, maybe it’s the person who will actually be managing this candidate. They interview them separately, rather than just being on one group interview. I love the idea of “alright, CEO had their chance, the manager had their chance.” Now, we’re going to come back and I think that like sharing information, as well, between those interviews in advance is super important as well, but then being able to, like make a selection based off of committee rather than one person, because I emotionally jived or our personalities clicked I like this guy. You know, I think it’s always good to have you know, another person’s perspective and I think that that’s kind of like the mindset shift that I’ve had.

Steve Cadigan 40:04

Let me give you a few. Let me give the audience a few tricks. Okay, few tricks, a few hacks in the process that may work for you. Questions that I always love to start my interviews with is walk me through your resume. And it’s not anything more than what was the thing you’re most proud of doing? And why did you leave? Okay, that I always want to know, just tell me the whole story, like, what were what were the drivers that made them want to leave? And, you know, what were the things that they’re most proud of? They don’t want to go, you know, who’s the best person you ever worked for? And why and who’s the least best person you were for? And why. So I want to try to get a picture of what kind of leadership they want to see if I can deliver on that or not, or what their triggers are. And if I’m seeing someone surface at every boss is an idiot that they’ve ever had, guess what do you think I’m going to expect? I’m going to be the next idiot. You know, it’s like, I don’t know what you know, I don’t know, necessarily, if I want that drama. Number three, I have seen multiple times in my career, someone be a star for me, and a dud next door, or a dud next door and a star for me. So just be mindful that different environments, and leaders bring out different things in people. So you’re a player, that was sort of the genesis of this question, like trying to find a player is largely environmentally, you know, impacted? So you know, try to find out what is the best and maybe they haven’t been in an environment like you’re so they don’t know, right? So if they, if you’re interviewing, for example, the honest is interviewing someone has only worked for big companies, is that person really going to handle the chaos that you’re going to offer in that environment where there’s no process document for everything that you guys are doing that with? Hey, so for example, one of the big mistakes we made at LinkedIn, when we got really big, and we saw a billion dollar destiny in front of us was let’s go hire a bunch of people who’ve led a billion dollar business. That was a flawed thinking, what we should have said is let’s go hire people who’ve built a billion dollar business, because all the people who led it didn’t build it. And they came in asked for three secretaries. And we’re like, whoa, whoa, whoa, we don’t have any secretaries here. What are you talking about? And if we do, they’re shared with like, five executives, so that a building skill. And this is really, really important, just just from a strategic recruiting, targeting point of view, you want probably this audience wants builders, not sustainers? What environments have you been in where you’ve been building, not just punching a clock or trying to save it? Most of my professional career was in the downside of a company’s life. Like we’re, you know, throwing jewelry overboard, cutting staff, you know, trimming expenses, that wasn’t fun. You know, I went I grew through, you know, my career was through the.com bubble bursting, late 1000, people offered Cisco, and second mortgage crisis, let a ton of people go and as the Electronic Arts video game industry was getting hammered, and EA hadn’t figured out the Nintendo was the next wave. So we’re just like struggling. And then I get to LinkedIn, and I go, Okay, I’m gonna hire more people now than I’ve ever let go my entire career. And we hired thousands, which was really, really inspirational. But it is tricky, it is really hard and coming up with the process that you believe in and just iterate like, one thing that you should definitely do, if you miss-hired, is debrief. What did we get wrong?

Like, could we have seen that? Do we not call enough references? Was there a clue that we overlooked in the interview process? And conversely, all your stars that you have hired, like, look at that, like, what did we get right? And how do we get that? Right? Like, why, you know, was it they’re from a particular experience? Or a country? Or do they have multiple language skills? Like, what is it about the person who’s thriving here that we can learn from, so that that profile, we can go find again, right, and most companies, is they don’t think about it that strategically, this is your company. And that gets to another thing? I see so many people out. So I’m gonna hire a search firm, why would you hire a search firm, this is the most important muscle you have is building your team, you got to be good at that. And if you’re not get someone to come train you but you got to own that you can’t you outsource that you’re missing all kinds of information, your opportunities to really see, you know, really good information.

Josh Hadley 44:04

Steve, I love what you just said there that last knowledge bomb, of why outsource, you know, the hiring of key individuals or really any staff on your team. As a CEO, I think one of the most important things that you have is being able to identify good talent, and being able to make sure the right people are in the right seat. And I think that especially as a new startup entrepreneur, like you’re not going to have a, you know, Chief HR, you know, record or manager, right? You’re not going to have all of these, you know, flashy titles, or C suite level individuals so as, as the CEO or just as an entrepreneur, feel like it is so crucial to get the training that you just referenced in order to understand and create a good process to identify a level talent, and I would argue of all The investments that you can make in your business, that one will have the largest ROI and provide dividends for the business to just continue to expand and grow exponentially. Would you agree percent?

Steve Cadigan 45:12

Yeah. Thumbs up on that man.

Josh Hadley 45:14

Awesome. You know, Steve, one last thing I kind of want to dive into. We’ve talked about some great hiring tips, tactics. I guess my one question to that is, do you have any other quick hints for us there before I take us into another topic?

Steve Cadigan 45:29

Okay, so I had a friend who was in a big marketing role at a big technology company. I think it was called Facebook at the time, I think they’re now meta. He had a practice of every time he had a candidate in his secretary would go in first and say, hey, you know, Sally’s running behind her bills running behind. So I’m just gonna sit here and keep and keep you company. Okay. The Secretary, it was very clear that they were the Secretary, he used that intentionally to see how that person was going to treat the Secretary, you know, it’s like, go get me a coffee, or you know, not pay any attention, just look at their phone or something, or they’re going to treat that person with respect. And this is really important to my friend, that this person is going to treat everyone the same, regardless of title or status in the company. And he said, you know, 30% of the time he would something would get outed and that experience that didn’t go well. And the Secretary would come back, and then they’d go back in and say, Yes, sorry, there’s been a schedule change of we’re have to reschedule the interview. I mean, it was just like, we don’t have time for this crap. Okay, you’re gonna come in here with your, you know, stomping around on people less than how we roll, you know, so it was a little bit of a hack that they worked for them. I never used that. That hack. That’s fun. Yeah.

Josh Hadley 46:49

I love that hack. Steve, any other hacks that you have? Because I think it’s all these like little gold nuggets when it comes to, you know, an interviewing question or anything like that. Anything else?

Steve Cadigan 47:00

Okay, so there, here’s another one for you. If scheduling the interview, becomes trying to solve, like world hunger, there’s a sign there, okay. Especially if you’re flying this person in. I mean, it’s just like, oh, gosh, you know, I need to have this, I need to have an aisle seat I needed like, oh, gosh, you know, oh, this is killing me. Like, you know, we’re startup here, what are you talking about all these special perks, like there, okay, so you’re, you’re giving me a signal of entitlement, in every interaction that we have, you know, that’s gotta be on your terms. And that’s just gonna parlay in, you know, when you come into the office, so just look for all those signals, they’re very, very revealing. If you can, another thing that that’s worked well for us, get them out of the office, if you can, if they’re if it’s an a key role, go to lunch, go to coffee, get them out, we are all as humans, probably more our authentic selves in an informal setting. And when you’re in the office, in a conference room, some boring, cheesy, you know, nothing new or work on the walls, sort of impersonal space, I saw probably where you’re going to get the person to sort of lower their guard. And so, you know, I would recommend, you know, trying to do that, here. And here’s another one last one I’ll give you, he really got me going here as treasurer of like, all these things. I measure my top talent as much by what questions they ask then what answers they give me? That shows me intellectual curiosity, that shows me what’s on their mind? You know, and I love the question that, you know, I always tell people ask, which is at the end of the interview? Hey, is there anything in this interview that would give you pause by hiring me? Is there anything that there’s a concern? Because if I’m a candidate, you know, I want to know, and so if they asked me that, I’m always honest with them, it’s like, well, you know, we are looking for someone with a little more depth here. I’m not sure that’s going to be a real inhibitor for you getting hired. But that’s something that if you had more would make me more confident in your candidacy. I’m just letting you know right now. So I’m never over promising the candidate, right. And then the okay, there’s another one, which I love. And this is a reference check question that please use it. If you’re calling a reference on someone who had left that company, you know, years before, asked the person when Josh left that role what was different about the next person you hired in that role? Okay, so what that question will often reveal is, well, if Josh wasn’t good with time management, they’re gonna say, Well, the next person was really good at time management, which is basically saying Josh was really good in our opinion with time management. You see what I’m saying? So, yeah, was there when the summer incident whenever someone leaves the company, our intent or usual intent is, well he did these things really well, but they didn’t do these. So let’s go swing the pendulum to cover some things that weren’t covered as well in the last person we had. So it’s just a really good non-confrontational opportunity for you to get a tie. All about the candidate a little bit.

Josh Hadley 50:02

Right, rephrase that question then Steve, how should we be asking this question in a reference check?

Steve Cadigan 50:07

Okay. So, you know, whoever the candidate name is, so let’s say sage Josh, you know, after Josh left the person you hired to replace Josh, what attributes did they have? Okay. Or did you? Did you change the job at all? When Josh left? If you did, what were the changes in the next person that came in? How are they different from Josh? Okay, it could, you might, might end up with nothing. But a lot of times, I’ve asked that. And I’ve got some really interesting insights.

Josh Hadley 50:34

Yeah, I like that, rather than asking the question like, what was their biggest weakness? Because then exactly, you know, people are not a lot, right, they are fine. So I love that it’s kind of a mask of like, the underlying issue you’re trying to get to is like, what are their weaknesses? You have to watch out.

Steve Cadigan 50:52

Another way to ask it is, if I hire Josh, what would be your coaching to me to set Josh up for success? Okay, um, you know, Oh, Josh needs a lot of, you know, you got to really detail all this to Josh, or you got to really give him this or he needs a hug every morning, you know, comes in cranky. You know, and just, and that, and that is with the intent of, you know, positive light. And a lot of times, we’ll, you know, if we’re close to making overly, hey, we were heading towards, you know, likely making an offer, what’s your coaching to me? So he hits the ground running, you know,

Josh Hadley 51:24

yeah. I love that. Yeah. I love that. Steve. Man, my, I could just keep going down this rabbit hole of hiring hacks.

Steve Cadigan 51:29

We need another episode. That’s what I’m hearing.

Josh Hadley 51:33

For real. Love this. All right, Steve, one quick thing that I want to like, wrap up, we talked about this offline. But one of the best predictors of job success is not the interview process. It’s not their resume, it is actually on the job doing the actual job, right? You had recommended one of the best things to do is, if it is at all possible, is hiring people for a temporary maybe one month internship, can you tell me how you’ve seen that work in the past and why that would be so important?

Steve Cadigan 52:06

Well, I know that works because when we had struggles at LinkedIn, recruiting, we flipped to more of an internship model. And that comes with a comes, you know, with a, the internship model comes a little bit of attacks in that you’re going to have to train people a lot more, you know, if you’re hiring with the beginning of their career, but the offer acceptance rate, when someone’s in there, tasting your culture, seeing your leadership style, and you’re seeing them operate in your culture, now you just have a greater both parties have a greater confidence level, our close rate went from like 60%, to 97% for intern conversions of the people that we wanted. And so I think that’s just the I mean, it’s too bad that there isn’t a practice in the world of everyone has twice a year, one week, or no a month, you know, maybe it’s once a it’s just too impractical, you know, to take that time off from from a job, like you’re gonna go do an internship somewhere else. And if you like it, you do it, you know, and I’m sure everyone’s read the article or heard of it. And if you haven’t, it’s interesting to hear Zappos used to have a policy and then maybe they still do, I think they’re part of Amazon now where they would pay you to go interview somewhere else. Hmm. Just to reaffirm like this is, you know, the grass may be greener. So go check it out, you know, take a couple days here, we’ll pay you go interview. And, you know, we believe that how we’re treating people, the coach we build here, your future is going to be better here. So we’re gonna give you the chance to do that, which is very, very bold, right? Very, very progressive.

Josh Hadley 53:34

Yeah, you’ve got to have, you’ve got to be very confident that you’ve got an amazing culture that is super sticky to do that. Right. Right.

Steve Cadigan 53:42

I love going to INEC. And with that comes this belief that you’re, you know, we don’t own you. But we have a lot of confidence that we build something that’s really worth being in, you know, it’s kind of like, you know, reverse sales, reverse psychology sales tactic, you know, it’s like, oh, you probably know, you know, this car is probably not, you know, ready for this car. You know, what, what do you mean? You know, I want to?

Josh Hadley 54:03

Yeah, I love that fantastic information. Steve, this has been so much fun today. Now, as we wrap up, I love to leave our audience with three actionable takeaways from every episode. So Steve, here are the three actionable takeaways that I noted. You let me know if you think I’m missing something. Or if there’s something else we didn’t cover today that you think we need to tack on here at the end. But first and foremost, I think what you need to do is determine the culture that you are trying to create in your business. It may be maybe it’s just you, maybe you have an assistant working in your business. If that’s the case, then you guys need to brainstorm and put out on paper, you know, why is it that people would want to work here? And what is it that’s going to set us apart from you know, the Googles or the LinkedIn or the Netflix’s right of the world? Why would people want to come work for you and how are you going to attract A-level talent from others? Okay, action item number two, I’m going to go down the quick hitting list of all of the great hacks and tips that Steve shared with us. I think that number one you shared, I’m going to kind of read back what you kind of talked about, in the interview process, walk through their resume, and you want to ask the questions. Why did you leave that job? And what were you most proud of? And I think those questions are going to reveal a lot about what things they did, what ended up pushing them out of that job was as an actual manager, or did they leave on their own volition? Another question, who have, out of their career ,who have been some of the best managers or bosses that they worked for? And who’s been the worst? And like you mentioned, if everybody’s a bad boss, guess what, you’re naturally going to be the next bad boss on their resume. You talked about what environments have they been in? In order for them? Or what environments have they been in? Where they’ve been creating things? Right? Not just, you know, hey, I’ve been following this SOP checklist for the last five years. It’s no, I’m the one who actually created the checklist. I’m the one who solved the problem. And the best the business is better for it. Right? That’s something you should be looking for. Another thing you should be looking for from the candidate is what questions are they asking you? Or do they just simply come? And then you ask them, hey, what questions do you have for me, though? None. Okay. All right. You’re you don’t have that curiosity that you talked about, or the growth mindset, because somebody that’s very growth minded and curious, should have questions because they know how important this next job is going to be in their future career. And so if you really want A-level talent, they should be asking good questions. And then a couple extra ones. When Josh left, right, or the candidates name, what changed in that position since he left? Or what was that other person that came in? What was different about the processes, right, that will help reveal maybe some of those areas of weakness? And then last thing, loved this question as a reference check. You know, hey, if I hire Josh, how should I coach him to get the best out of him to get the best performance? And again, you’re going to have somebody that will possibly open up and help share with you. Yeah, Josh is really emotional. He has really big highs and lows throughout the day. So do X, Y, and Z. And again, you can determine, does that work for you in your culture? So it goes back to action item number one, at the end of the day, make sure as you go through and you’re vetting these candidates, will they add and build to your culture? Or will they detract from your overall culture, right. And then I’m gonna say, last action item is number three, you talked about how pivotal this was at LinkedIn, but maybe kind of shifting to a more, you know, internship offer first model, where maybe you’re not getting people from that have been, you know, career professionals for the last 20 years, they’re not going to have the time to do a internship for a month, but you get new people out of college, or they’re fresh from, you know, trance, transitioning from another career, if you get them in, you have the opportunity to better see their output, how they work within your culture, rather than just making a lot of assumptions, which is what typically happens in the interview process. So my third and final action item is implement some type of internship program for almost every single role in your business. And that’s going to be the best training program to make sure that you actually have somebody that’s going to be able to help grow your business and take it to the next level. Yeah,

Steve Cadigan 58:45

Josh, what I would do to add on to that is basically, I mean, I can capture the last, you know, bucket on recruiting under the following like, really be thoughtful and strategic and recognize the competitive advantage of being really good at recruiting and thinking about it. And I also think, and this is a story for another time that the future of businesses are not fully autonomous independent units, but ecosystems. And so think about interns in terms of like, is there a community college nearby? Is there a junior college? Is there a university where I can have interns here all the time, and this, they could get credit for it? And now I’m getting and you know, and pay them off, pay them a fair wage, but I can get credit? And then where is there a school that I can partner with that they can help solve my business problems? I give it to them. There’s something we did at LinkedIn with the University of California Santa Barbara, their data science program was solving similar stuff that what we were doing so we gave them some stuff, you know, and they gave us in turn some of their best professors and candidates and we wound up hiring a couple of professors to work for us. Yeah. And some of them was just for a few months or a contract or some or whatever. But that I believe is the future because things are changing so fast. If you really think you’re the only smart one is going to figure this out, I think you’re really going to limit or handicap your capacity to be successful building an ecosystem of talent. And smart people out there, especially with AI coming in. I mean, we don’t even even the creators of AI, don’t know how it’s going to impact it. But we all know it’s going to be substantial and significant. So you better be building your AI ecosystem today. And that’s probably I mean, I’m sure some guests that you’ve got lined up, Josh, because all my clients are wanting to talk about that. And the first thing I do is say, stop, stop trying to implement something with AI, go fill a, you know, a board of your AI strategy, you know, put an AI strategy board together with your investors, your board of directors, your talent that knows it, because we got something really big coming. And that’s, I think that takes the burden off of us as leaders to have to know and solve everything is build a community building these advisory boards that can really help you with the hard stuff.

Josh Hadley 1:00:56

Yeah. I love that. Steve, Steve, this has been an amazing conversation today. My mind is just churning with ideas and how we’re going to change the way that we hire our team members. But I hope that our listeners understand this is one of the most crucial skills to develop as an entrepreneur as a leader, as a CEO. So I hope they don’t gloss over this, they’re probably gonna have to listen to this on repeat a couple times to digest all the nuggets that you shared with us today. Steve, I’m gonna go through our final three questions. Number one, what’s been the most influential book that you’ve read and why?

Steve Cadigan 1:01:33

Oh, gosh, it’s always a hard one for me. And I usually go with recency, but I’m not going to go recency this one. I think most of my thinking was most shaping my life by a book by Peter Senge called The Fifth Discipline. And The Fifth Discipline comes with a field guide is so heavy, and I took a class on it, I’ve read it, I’ve read it a couple times. But basically, it reveals to you in every group of human beings, there are patterns of behavior that form and it raised my awareness of those. And it’s so true, like he comes up with like, I don’t know, 20 archetypes, he calls them, for example, one of them is, it’s called tragedy of the commons, you get a superstar, and everyone leans on the superstar, and everyone gives a superstar, more work, and then a superstar burns out, and they leave. So it’s just a common pattern that we get into, and it really helps you get in front of that. So that’s definitely a book that I would recommend. I mean, it’s, it’s not like a quick read on an airplane. It’s like you’re gonna, it’s kind of like the Bible, you just sit down. Okay, today, I’m gonna focus on this chapter. Okay. Or you can come back to it’s really, really good. Yeah.

Josh Hadley 1:02:36

I love it. I haven’t had that book recommended before. So I love having a new book on on here. Great. Steve, next question, what is your favorite productivity tool, or maybe a new software that you feel like is going to be a game changer?

Steve Cadigan 1:02:50

Gosh, for me, like a lot of people, I’m sure, sleep has been a big area of inquiry for me. And so my game changer is a bunch of it’s all around that. So I use my Apple Watch to really and there’s a few apps on there that really helped me see how much did my getting how deep is my sleep? What’s my heart rate, I’ve correlated that with when I have alcohol when I don’t have alcohol when I have sugar when I don’t have sugar when I eat. And so I’m going through a pattern now of greater self awareness. So today, I have I mean, I’m sitting here feeling really energized. And I know I had a wonderful sleep last night even though my nine was last yesterday. I have a wonderful sleep last night. And so the Calm app is definitely one that more and more companies are giving away for free, but that’s huge productivity, just having that clarity, and feeling more aware of what habits I have, that have been creating some bad patterns for me to be you know, really fully engaged and doing my best stuff.

Josh Hadley 1:04:00

Love it. I completely echo your sentiments, their final question who is somebody that you admire or respect the most in the e-commerce space that other people should be following and why?

Steve Cadigan 1:04:08

Okay, this one’s gonna be controversial, I’m sure. But it’s, I’m not even sure I’m going to pronounce his name right. So I’m going to start to you know, say so, Shou Zhi Chew, who is the Singaporean leader of TikTok. What they have built there is what I think every media company wants, which is entertainment, that learns about you that serves you stuff that you want to use and buy. I cook more food from TikTok recipes, recipes, I have all kinds of things coming to me from the TikTok Shop. You know, it’s just, they’ve got a model there is fascinating to me, just fascinating. And I love how all these you know, first-time entrepreneurs that are leveraging it and going independent or having a chance to design. It’s not a perfect system and there’s a monster, they’re still figuring it out. And there’s it’s there are some things that they need to work through. But that’s a pretty impressive model that I’ve been paying a lot of attention to lately. Yeah, yeah.

Josh Hadley 1:04:59

I love that, lots of game-changing technology coming out. Yep. Now, Steve, if people want to follow you, they want to learn more about the books, you know, they want to follow you as you come out with your new book, where’s the best place for people to follow you and stay up to date and learn more about you?

Steve Cadigan 1:05:15

Yeah, sure. I have a website, SteveCadigan.com. Most of my opportunities come through people who go to the website and sees this guy really know what he’s doing. And then they’ll fill out a contact form, and then I’ll be on a plane to help them in their their team, their organization. So that’s one. For some comedic relief, I have a TikTok channel. It’s called Steve Cadigan. And have a series there called True Stories from Corporate America. And I, these are stories that like is going to raise the hair on the back of your neck like Did that really happen? Yes, it really happened. So I tried to change the name and protect the innocent, or when it’s already in the news, I won’t do that. But just sort of give a little bit of humor. So those are the places and obviously you can follow me on LinkedIn. I am a pretty prolific poster of content there stories that I see things that are really interesting. And mainly it’s around why we need to be better as leaders out there and all the stories of the hall of shame of people doing some really crappy stuff as leaders that we can do better, and we deserve better. So but yeah, those are the best places to find me.

Josh Hadley 1:06:15

Awesome. Well, I highly recommend our listeners, follow along, whether it’s the entertaining stories or the practical, you know, leadership stories to improve your leadership abilities. But Steve, thank you so much for your time today. We are much better for it, and maybe we’ll have to do another podcast down the road.

Steve Cadigan 1:06:34

Sounds great. Thank you so much for having me, Josh, and thank you for what you’re doing. You’re helping so many entrepreneurs.

Outro 1:06:40

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