Brett Curry 4:58

That’s a really great question. And then you know, if you’re doing this seven-figure is on Amazon, you’re doing a lot of things right. And so hats off to you kudos to you, you’ve, you’ve got what a lot of people want and what a lot of people are working towards. I want to talk about some kind of fun things, and some unique growth accelerators. A lot of people listening to this aren’t using like, like YouTube and Google ads and a few other things. I do think it’s worth mentioning though, Josh, that even if you’re at seven figures, you probably have a little more you can do, or maybe a lot more you can do on Amazon. And so a couple of things to just point out there kind of quickly, and then we can move on to other stuff is, you know, we talk to our Amazon brands all the time about hey, this is really about building a brand on Amazon don’t just think about Amazon as a sales channel. But how do you build and establish your brand on Amazon so that comes down to things like product positioning, how do I position my prior to you know, in the marketplace, next to my competitors, so that people say, ah, that’s the product for me and I resonate with that brand, versus someone just buying a product because they see it on Amazon and they’ll forget your brand and all their members they bought this thing on, on Amazon and I really liked this idea of creating experiences on Amazon through your product detail pages and storefront that sort of more like you know, the Apple store within Best Buy, right? So Apple, obviously one of the most iconic brands and tons of demand that everybody knows Apple right when the most valuable companies in the world, but they still leverage traffic from places like Best Buy, right? But when you go into a Best Buy, it’s not just a random product here there it’s like the Apple experience inside of BestBuy and I really like thinking about it that way kind of using that real world example to translate into Amazon so is your storefront compelling is your A plus content on your pride detail page is compelling is the photography compelling to create this immersive experience where when someone looks at they’re like I love this brand. And I want to dig in here because I can think of several brands that I’ve discovered on Amazon that I’ve since told a lot of people about and now I’m loyal to that brand but I found it on Amazon. I can also think of or should I say not think of a whole bunch of products that I bought on Amazon I’m like man, I just bought it you know, it was like it was ranking high and it was the you know as the projector with some no name on it or whatever. But I do have a couple like health brands that I like when I discovered this on Amazon. One is trace minerals. It’s like an electrolyte drink and I absolutely love this product. But found it on Amazon I tell a lot of people about it our superfood creamer that I found on Amazon called Laird Superfood Coffee Creamer. And I drink it every day. And I absolutely love it. And so but these are brands now to me, and I just so happen to buy them on Amazon and so I think people need that. And then you need to maximize your basics, your sponsored product ads sponsored brands, I think even looking at some Amazon DSP to go a little bit next level. And then when all of that is working, and all of that is going well, then you start layering on Google search ads to Amazon and YouTube and some of those other fun things.

Josh Hadley 7:52

Yeah, makes a lot of sense. And that’s definitely the recommendation that I would share. And what other guests have shared as well is that before you start, you know, experimenting with all of the other, you know, external traffic and really getting into the weeds of going into D to C as well is are you actually optimizing everything on Amazon that you possibly can? Right? Are you doing Amazon posts? Are you building your Amazon storefront out? Are you have you maximized A plus content, the new eight premium A plus content? Are all of your listings, keyword optimized, right? Do you have your PPC ads dialed in. I mean, that’s enough full time work in and of itself. But like, that’s the fundamentals that you need to master first, before you start diving into what we’ll have is a bigger conversation of like what other DTC brands are doing. But I think that that’s the, that’s getting the your bases covered,

Brett Curry 8:47

make sure and as we start to look at some of these other things, and I’ll just I’ll tee something really quickly, before we get into the details of it. If you’re running to more top of funnel traffic, you know, whether that’s YouTube, which we’ll dive into, or Facebook ads, or we even know some brands consulting with some brands that run TV, which is super fun and interesting. That’s always going to generate search to Amazon and I can talk about some specific examples there. But you gotta you gotta be ready for that, right? Someone sees an ad elsewhere, maybe they click, maybe they don’t, but later, they’re just gonna go search for it on Amazon. So how do you show up there? Do you have good branded search campaigns? Or you do is that is that experience really set up properly? Where someone sees that ad? Now they visited Amazon? Are they going to buy your product or they’re gonna be just like, oh, this other part looks about the same. I just buy that. And so yeah, you gotta have the basis. The foundation. They’re strong foundation means rapid scale in other channels.

Josh Hadley 9:42

Yeah. I love that. And I think that that’s so important. Like, if you want to expand your brand, you think about running TV ads, radio ads, YouTube ads, whatever it is, right? You’ve got to have the basics covered. So I want to go back and touch on this one more time here Brett, you talked about brands creating an experience where you’ve had some brands on Amazon, that you’re like, you found them on Amazon and you remember those brands, versus the number of times that you, I, and everybody else by someone’s like, I have no idea where who the brand is or anything like that. So my question to you, Brett is like, what made the difference? What made these experiences more memorable for you that you fell in love with the brand that you discovered on Amazon?

Brett Curry 10:26

Yeah, I mean, I think I think ultimately it comes down to the quality of the product itself. And is it meeting a given need actually, I think Laird Hamilton was a recommendation from a buddy of mine, but I did buy that creamer, the superfood creamer. But I did buy it the first time on Amazon, that’s where I bought it the whole time. But basically, it’s got good healthy fats, little bit of coconut sugar in it just super, super healthy. Once I tried it, I realized I could think more clearly I was less hungry between breakfast and, and lunch. And so the product, which is great, and it checked a lot of boxes for me trace minerals that I found on Amazon, all together, but the thing I loved about it is great electrolytes plus vitamins and no sugar. And you know, if you look at even some of the more popular not not just Gatorade and Powerade, some of those things, but even like the packets that you buy of electrolytes, you know, you’re like, Oh, this is gonna be super healthy. And then you look at it. And it’s got like 12 grams of sugar, which is actually not an insignificant amount. And I’m a heavy not to get too personal here, Josh, but I’m a heavy sweater. So I’m working off — I’m at the gym, which I’ve been working out pretty consistently here for the last year. So I sweat like crazy. So I gotta have electrolytes, but I don’t want to put my body full of sugar. And so Ptrace really did that. Plus shopping experience is great. You know, everything just looks good. So, you know, I think part of the difference is, does this look like a product that was designed thoughtfully and for me? And that comes down to ingredients and or features into the composition of the product itself? So it comes down to merchandising, right? What’s the product packaging? Like? And what does it how does this thing you know, operate? And what does it look like? And then it’s the details we talked about right storefront? Can I easily navigate and click around and find out? Is this a real company or again, just a product on Amazon? And then those product detail pages? So really those things that just make it stand down and make you think, “Man, this is a brand that I want to buy? And then I kind of want to be associated with even and then I’ll probably tell other people about?”

Josh Hadley 12:16

Yeah, yeah, I think that you hit the nail right on the head is like, first and foremost, it’s got to be a quality product. Yeah. And then secondly, you’ve got to have additional products to offer people, right so that they see it as like a suite of products that it’s not just this one thing that they can buy from you. And then you’ve also got a storefront that’s organized, right, and all of your branding meshes across all of your products, they all add into this overall vision or mission that you have. For me as I go through, you know, the brands that I’ve enjoyed finding on Amazon, as I think through it, it’s not that they had a gimmicky like insert card that got me on their email list, totally. And then I fell in love. It was quite the opposite. It was like, this is a brand I actually trust their product, it works. And I can see that they do this in many different verticals. And they have different products that they offer. And so I could follow along with that brand. And, and just be a Yeah, a fan of the brand overall, right?

Brett Curry 13:23

Yeah. And like NO and NO gotchas right where this happened a few times, I talked about the other electrolyte drink, or I’ve been drinking this thing for a while. And I’m like, Oh, crap, look at all the sugar. Like I just for one person, I trusted it. And then I realized it’s got a bunch of sugar or, or whatever, I tried this, this product, I bought this projector, whatever. And then it didn’t work for my setup or wasn’t as advertised. So no gotchas there. And then yeah, it’s just something like, Hey, I, this checks all the boxes, this is meeting a need that was unmet. And now I want to keep buying more. And yeah, with the trace minerals as an example. And this is not an advertisement is that they’re not a client is like their product. But maybe I should like do an endorsement deal or something. But then we bought the electrolytes first and we brought the green drink. And then there’s something else that my wife bought that I think the kids drink, all from that one, all from that one brand.

Josh Hadley 14:08

Brand, I completely agree with you, I think that it’s so important just to have the fundamentals covered, to make sure that you have people that love your brand first and that you’ve built out your product lines, then you can start taking things to the next level. So let’s uh, so let’s go on to this next phase Brett, where we do have a well built out storefront on Amazon, we have a whole product suite that we offer. And we’ve got some followers that actually love our brand. What is the next stage to kind of take that brand to the next level? And we say, we’ve already tapped out of the whole Amazon game. What do we do next to grow our brand?

Brett Curry 14:43

Yeah, it’s a great question. And I really like to still think about this kind of thing in shopping funnels, right. So at the very top of the funnel, you got the awareness stage. And so we’re just making people aware of our brand and maybe the most extreme examples of that would be TV ads, your Superbowl ads on TV or billboards and time. Square or, you know, park benches or whatever, like busta benches, you know, billboards, things like that of just pure awareness. I’m just like throwing my message out there to a broad audience, it’s awareness, right? Then you got more kind of mid funnel, which would be like consideration. And this is maybe when someone is actively shopping for something, or they’re beginning to research a product or research a problem they’re trying to solve. So it’s kind of in this more in this consideration, stage, and then you got and then you got purchase, right? And so I think there’s, there’s a decent amount. In fact, I think most of Amazon is purchase or consideration, right? Someone goes to Amazon, they have an idea what they want, they’re searching for a product. So most product discovery on Amazon is through search and not anything else. And so that’s really where most Amazon brands live and operate is in that consideration and purchase stage. I think another way to look at it is kind of this, this binary of either we’re demand generation, we’re creating demand, or we’re capturing demand. So we’re generating demand, meaning no one’s even thinking about our product, they might not even be thinking about our category might not even know it exists. So we’re generating demand or demand capture, as there’s demand out there. And we’re grabbing those ready buyers. So I like to move up the funnel, slowly. I mean, I say slowly, I think methodically is maybe a better way to look at that, because I do like speed as well. But I think one of the first things you try once you got all the bases covered, as you look at Google ads to Amazon, I think there’s a couple of compelling reasons here. So these would be Google search ads that lead someone from Google, to your Amazon storefront of your Amazon product, detail pages. And what’s really interesting here, Josh, is that there are millions and millions of searches every day for products on Amazon, meaning someone’s typing in, you know, comforter, Amazon, or pillow or coloring conditioner, or anti wrinkle cream, Amazon, but they’re doing it on Google. And it’s super easy. I think just for a lot of people. The Internet begins with Google, right? They have every intention of buying something on Amazon, but they start on Google anyway. And another interesting thing to think about is, if you look at Amazon’s number one traffic source from the beginning, it’s been Google, right. And Amazon is the top spender. On Google ads, I can’t remember how many billions of dollars a quarter Amazon spends on Google ads. And so it’s kind of those things where you’re like, hey, if it’s good enough for Bezos, maybe maybe good enough for me here, where if Amazon’s driving traffic from Google, they know something that maybe a lot of us don’t. And so that’s still I would call that consideration, phase, consideration stage is still very much demand capture. But let’s start running Google ads to people that are searching for my category might type of product on Google, but they’re typing in Amazon as well. And that’s just a great place to start. And what’s also cool, and this is one of those things that some people don’t know are they haven’t really paid that close attention. But Josh, I’m gonna, I’m gonna quiz you, I’m gonna turn the tables. I’m gonna ask you a question. So let’s give me a product category, just a product category for fun. Let’s do calendars. Calendars. Okay. So I search for calendars, Amazon, but I search for that on Google. So I’m now presented with an ad from Amazon. So Google delivers what I want. It’s an ad for calendars on Amazon, I clicked that Amazon ad, what kind of page do I land on? What kind of page does Amazon send me to when I click on that ad?

Josh Hadley 18:28

That’s a good question. I think that they have a couple of different ad types, don’t they? I think they do. One just goes to the general like, search page. Yeah. And then another one, like, they’re going to take some listing. And it’s not always the number one organically ranked listing. Or maybe it is, there will be like an option where like, it goes straight to somebody’s product detail page. Right? Right.

Brett Curry 18:52

So that other one you just mentioned, we’ll go straight to a product detail page. That’s the Google Shopping ad itself, or product listing as what they’ve been called kind of at the beginning. But it’s a picture of a product description, price, all that. Now, what’s interesting is only Amazon can run those ads, sending traffic back to their store. Because to run that not to get too technical to detail. But to run that type of ad, you gotta prove that you own the cart and on the checkout experience in that type of ad that goes directly to a product detail page, from the shopping results that only Amazon can run. But the search ads, the text ads, those almost always send people to the first kind of page we talked about, which is a search results page on Amazon. So I type in calendars on Amazon. I click on that search ad, I now land on amazon.com. But it’s a search results page. And what is that search results page filled with all of my competitors, and it’s filled with Amazon ads, right? So it’s actually this kind of brilliant arbitrage game that Amazon is paying where they’re like, Hey, okay, I’ll pay two bucks a click over here, but then when someone lands on this page, decent chance to click on one of my ads, I’m gonna charge them three bucks a click or whatever. Whatever that math works out to. But anyway, the traffic is usually going to category page that’s not your page. And so what we like to experiment with then is, hey, let’s target certain keywords that are related to our category, our specific product. And then let’s send that traffic either to our storefront or a specific page on our storefront or directly to a product detail page. And we will like to think about that based on like, if it’s just generic, like, you know, calendars, Amazon or you know, coloring calendars, Amazon, and I’ll send them to kind of the storefront or like a subcategory on the storefront. If it’s like pizza, you know, a very specific search, you know, like, I’ll get I’ll give a different example. It’s like, you know, cooling, twin size sheets, beige or whatever, you know that because we search that specific, right? So if it’s that keyword and Amazon, they’ll just, you know, parachute someone right in to that specific product. But that’s a strategy that a lot of people are missing the Google ads to Amazon, there’s a few complexities and a few things you got to consider. But that’s one of the next things I would consider.

Josh Hadley 21:05

How effective are those ads? Because I’ve also heard, you know, we’ve had Ampd, on the podcast as well, right? And, again, Amazon says, or they’ve actually come out and said that, like, you will get a boost in your ranking if you’re sending us external traffic, right. So I think there is a benefit there to times that we have toyed around a little bit with Google ads. We haven’t seen crazy results where it’s like, Oh, my goodness, like the heavens just opened by turning on Google. It’s hard. We’ve never been able to see like a direct correlation. Oh, we turned on Google ads. And man, we just shot through the roof, we started ranking better. We haven’t necessarily seen that specifically for our brand. But I’m curious, like, Do you have any case studies of people that are just absolutely killing it? Or what is the mindset that people need to have, when it comes to Google ads? Is that like, Hey, if you’re just breaking even, or even at a point five row ads, like, that’s good. Like, tell me what you’re saying from your side? Yeah. So

Brett Curry 22:06

I mean, there’s a few things that are great questions, by the way, a few things to keep in mind, I think it does come down to kind of mindset and strategy first, and then I’ll talk about some examples here in just a second. But one thing I think you ought to keep in mind is, you know, We’re fans of testing small, and I think this is a smart, right, don’t don’t come out and, you know, double your ad budget, you know, on a new initiative that that’s unproven for your brand. But at the same time, you want to test enough to be able to see, is this moving the needle? Or is this working? And so as an example, you know, sometimes we’ll see someone test Google to Amazon. And if you look at the total amount of clicks, it’s like a 2% lift in clicks to their product detail page, right, which is fine. We’re just gonna measure some things, that’s fine. But then you can’t come back and say, Well, I didn’t really see any ranking improvement on this, and I didn’t really see any halo effect. And I’m like, Well, that would be so small, it would be imperceptible, right. Like, you’ve got to probably crossed that 10 to 15% threshold to really see is this causing a halo effect and really causing some lift? Another thing to kind of keep in mind is that that measurement is imperfect. So even if you’re using a tool, like, like AMPT, which kind of ties back to Amazon attribution, it’s still not going to be 100%. Right? There’s still just some stuff lost. Yeah, in that in that attribution window. And so you do want to use Amazon attribution, I’m confident in that. But yeah, I would definitely come into Google to Amazon with kind of like, what’s the lowest of low threshold, I could hit here, because really, the goal is just visible, let’s visible be breakeven, because then as we scale up, we’re gonna see that halo effect that ranking increase other positive things happening. But let’s just delete at least kind of be breakeven, we have had clients who’ve gone beyond that, that have had two or three extra eyes or whatever. But that’s often rare and not using the beginning. And sometimes you just don’t get clean data back from Amazon attribution. When you’re sending traffic from Google to a Shopify store or a big commerce store. Everything’s just connected a little bit cleaner, and you indeed get better data. So you gotta keep that in mind as well. Live it live up to two cases are two examples. One was a supplement brand that did not rank on Amazon. And the only thing they did they didn’t run Amazon ads. I don’t know why. I think it was just a matter of, you know, loss of focus, and no time and whatever. But all this brand did was they ran simple ads from Google to Amazon. And this was a growing brand that was profitable. There were dozens of new customers every month. And again, they did not rank for anything significant. It was all just Google to Amazon, which is super interesting. Brand with tons of potential, tons of untapped potential, but another and we’ve had several jobs have gotten into this category, where they’re spending north of six figures a month on Google ads to Amazon, knowing that hey, we got everything checked off. Right? Right. We’ve got great reviews. This is A great price for people looking for this product. And now we know if we send enough traffic to this product detail page, we’re going to see growth. And if you can, I wouldn’t suggest starting there. And you probably couldn’t start there even if you just wanted to. But we’ve seen multiple brands spending six figures a month with Google to Amazon and having a meaningful lift, both in direct sales, but then also in overall lift and branded searches. And you know, still great tacos and things like that.

Josh Hadley 25:28

Fascinating. Those are some awesome case studies. I love to hear that.

Brett Curry 25:32

But I do want to, they are but I do want to share one thing. It’s not like the thing where you turn it on, and it just explodes your business. It’s not right. It’s like it’s an add on. It’s a nice thing. Maybe you scale it to where it’s pretty large. But I would say still for the majority of sellers, it’s going to be like, yes, there’s a nice little nice little add on, it’s not going to be as useful as your, you know, sponsor product ads or something like that. But yeah, but ya

Josh Hadley 25:55

know, and I appreciate you sharing that kind of like mindset that people need to have when they get into Google ads. And I think that’s the most important thing you need to do is just have the right frame of mind to understand like, what is my objective here? It’s not going to double my business overnight. But if I can make 1% improvements across the board in different channels, that starts to compound.

Brett Curry 26:17

Yeah, exactly. And it is kind of like understanding how does this tool work? Right? This is just a tool. It’s a tool to drive traffic to your store, how does it work in terms of how is it measured? And how are you getting data on it? But then also, how do users interact with it as well. And so kind of understanding those things. Because even from the user standpoint, the shopper standpoint, even though this is still consideration stage, if someone is searching from Google looking for Amazon, maybe they’re ready to buy today, but maybe they’re not, maybe they’re gonna buy in three or four or five days. And so you gotta keep kind of keep that in mind as well. It’s in that consideration phase, I believe, but it may, it’s maybe a little higher mid funnel than, say, a sponsored product ad is on Amazon.

Josh Hadley 26:56

Yeah. I love that. All right, Brett. So let’s say we’ve turned on Google ads. Now what? And I’m also interested to hear your perspective on this. At what point does a seller on Amazon start to focus on DTC themselves? Yeah, it’s

Brett Curry 27:11

such a great question. I do think it depends on a few things, I would, I would argue, like as soon as you’re comfortable, as soon as you have the skills, and or connections to people with the right skills to go DTC to build that Shopify store, whatever platform you want to build on, the sooner you can do that. I think the better because if you start to do things like YouTube ads, which we’ll talk about in a second, or Facebook ads, or TikTok or other areas, I think you’ve got the greatest leverage there when you can send someone to your store. But then you’ll also get sales on Amazon as well. But I think ultimately comes down to like, do you have that skill set? Can you find someone who built a store for you that represents your brand and creates that immersive shopping experience on Shopify? And do you have enough? You know, product assortment that if you get a customer, one time customer that can bind multiple things? And do you have the ability to create a product detail page that’s going to convert at a bare minimum that, you know, industry average of one to 3%, for cold traffic, ideally beyond that? And so do you have some of those things? And then, are you good at storytelling and branding? Or can you partner with someone who is so that you can create those ads that compel people to take action? So I don’t know that it’s necessarily a specific dollar amount, so much as it is like, do you have the skill set and is your business in a place to do that, if you’re a single SKU business, I think that’s going to be quite a bit harder to build on a Shopify store, if it’s just one SKU so often multi SKU and it doesn’t to be a lot, it can be just a handful, that’s usually going to perform better with with a store. So it’s more kind of a few of those, you know, in on tangible intangibles. But I do think it’s going to be most applicable probably for the people that start on Amazon to be most applicable probably once you pass that seven figure mark if we had to put $1 amount there. But that does vary from prospect to prospect, right. I know we’ll get into this case study probably more later, but boom by Cindy Joseph longtime client and friend as her Firestone they launched completely on Shopify, you know, and then didn’t add Amazon until later and native deodorant, same thing they launched DTC and then added Amazon later. So in those cases, they launched DTC at zero, right. So it kind of depends on on skill set and a few other factors.

Josh Hadley 29:27

100% it is a different ballgame. Right? You are now good at demand generation, right? Yes, bringing people into your funnel, whereas Amazon is where people are already sitting at the bottom of the funnel. Just sell them something right there already. Yeah, better than what is already out there. Right.

Brett Curry 29:46

And there’s built in trust, right? There’s trust because you’re on Amazon and I know even if this product sucks Amazon’s gonna take it back. Right? Whereas if it’s a Shopify store, I don’t know who are you what, what is this brand and do I see reviews? Do I believe those reviews? Is there social proof? I believe that social proof on my same product demonstrations is this is the branding of this site create confidence, not that it has to be, you know, not that has to match Nike or Apple or something like that. But am I getting a sense of confidence when I’m on your page? And so, yeah, it’s a different game to play, I think it can reap very, very large rewards, but it is a different unit play.

Josh Hadley 30:19

Yeah. And I’ve recently had kind of a mindset shift in terms of like, you know, how I should approach D to C, you know, we’re actively working on our Shopify storefront now, and for the longest time, we kind of avoided it, right, we kind of never paid attention to our Shopify store. And we knew that, hey, there’s actually more value in doubling down on what’s working on Amazon, which is still true, right? We needed to make sure we did everything to maximize what we’re already doing on Amazon, which we already talked about in this podcast, do that first, then you can start layering on some of these strategies. And the mindset shift that occurred to me is that if we start focusing on more top of funnel searches, and we’re driving them to our website, not all of those sales are going to come to our storefront or to our shop. 100%. Right, a lot. And I don’t even know what the percentage is maybe, you know, is it 50% of people that see like a Facebook ad? And they’ll just be like, Oh, that’s interesting. I’m immediately going to go pop over to Amazon now. And I’m going to search for that thing on Amazon. I know for myself, that’s my behavior. When I see something interesting on Facebook ad or Instagram, like, Oh, that’s interesting. I don’t click the ad, I go immediately over to Amazon, and I try to look up that brand on Amazon. Right. So now I screw up all their marketing metrics.

Brett Curry 31:45

So yes, you do. Yes, you do. But that’s such a common foreign behavior. And so I think a couple things to consider here. So if you’re 100% Amazon right now, it’s almost unreasonable to think that I just do a few things. I’ll launch a Shopify store, run some top funnel ads, and pretty soon I’ll be 5050. Right? That means you double your business pretty quickly by selling on Shopify, that’s not going to happen easily, right? It’s going to take a lot of work. You’re battling inertia, right. You’re you’re you’re getting something from nothing and kind of getting that momentum. With Shopify, I think a much clearer path or again, kind of thing about mindset and expectation is, you know, I know that certain people want to buy from my store. Some people don’t like Amazon, it’s the minority of people, I think, but potentially a growing list of people that want to buy on a Shopify store something not Amazon, so we’ll reach those people. There’s some people that want to look at a store and then they’ll buy on Amazon, right? Or maybe they’ll click your Facebook ad or your YouTube ad or something else tick tock, and they’ll land on your store, they’ll get educated, then they’ll go and search for it on Amazon. And the nice thing is if they land on your Shopify store, you can capture their name and email address, you can pixel them and put them on your remarketing list you’ve got lots of options there and so yeah, even once you launch that that D to C store it’s still you’re still be driving a lot of sales to Amazon. So a couple of examples here that illustrate this one comes from the infomercial world now I have always liked oddly always liked infomercials Josh it’s something weird about my personality. I don’t I don’t have time to like sit around and consume infomercials and busy with a bunch of kids in sports and all kinds of stuff but —

Josh Hadley 33:20

Don’t lie you’re up at midnight, your favorite shows are over and you have nothing else to watch so I can’t sleep.

Brett Curry 33:26

I’m looking for the next you know Beachbody or you know next potato peeler or the next George Foreman grill I’m just I’m on the hunt, right? But no I remember that as a preteen probably or maybe younger seeing one of the Ginsu knife infomercials. And I thought, wow, this is the coolest knife ever invented, like tried to talk my parents into buying it. They didn’t but it was just like one of my early exposures to infomercials and was super fun. But what’s cool, I got to interview a guy named Jordan Pine on my podcast episode, I’m gonna just make up a number. So I’ll skip that. But it’s a Jordan pine ecommerce evolution podcast. So he has worked with a lot of the top infomercial products, so either producing or, or scripting or, you know, things like that. And he said, what’s interesting now is when a new product is launched with an infomercial, right, so you’re putting, you know, put quite a bit of budget behind something to launch an infomercial because it’s production. It’s pretty large TV buys and things like that. Here’s the math they’re looking at now Josh, when they were when they run an infomercial, they are fully expecting 50% of those sales to come on Amazon. So even an infomercial that saying go to this website or call today or whatever, you know, they expect 50% of those sales to go to amazon so they’ve gotta get an Amazon you know, listing setup and stuff like that, but that’s where they’re expecting those sales to go 30% will go to the DTC shop so Shopify or whatever, and then 20% You know, given the nature of its, you know, they’re often targeting a slightly older audience stuff like that. 20% is gonna be a phone order, right? So here’s this extreme top of funnel ad, not talking about Amazon half People go to Amazon, which kind of makes sense. I’ll give another example. Boom by Cindy Joseph. And we, you know, we’ve run their DSC stuff on Google and YouTube, we helped them launch on Amazon. So they built their storefront, the product listings like all that full, full scale launch on Amazon, they went from zero to 6 million in sales on Amazon their first year. Now this was because they had a great brand. They’re spending a ton of money on Facebook and YouTube and other places. But what’s interesting is that there was not very much cannibalization in sales. So it wasn’t like we just suddenly appealed to people that were buying DSC. And now they were convinced to buy on Amazon. There’s a little bit of cannibalization, but most of it was growth. And so what that proves to us is that if someone sees an ad, top of funnel, whether it’s YouTube, TV, Facebook, whatever, they are gonna go to Amazon. And if they don’t find you, if they can find something that’s comparable, or halfway comparable, they might just buy that first, right and so, so that’s sort of the thing about, you want to do a C store, you want to drive top of funnel traffic, but the behavior you described, that’s just that’s just the behavior people have, right? They’re often gonna go to Amazon. Next, and we work with, which is one more quick example, salon grade haircare products. And so then a bunch of salons across the US, and we’re getting a lot of website traffic, and the sales are okay, on the website. But Amazon has continued to grow. And so I firmly believe a lot of people that are like, “Oh, I can buy it on the website. Well wonder what was on Amazon,” and they’ll go and then they’ll ultimately buy it on Amazon. And I think this is happening across age, age and demographic, right? So boom by St. Joseph, older demographic and other one overtone. It’s like a coloring hair conditioner, their fastest growing channel by far, and this is like a younger, you know, millennial Gen Z type audience and younger like they are, they’re growing on Amazon rapidly, that’s where most of their growth is coming from as Amazon right now.

Josh Hadley 36:55

Fascinating. No, I think that I think it’s so important to understand that there’s so much bleed over into, you know, to Amazon, right. And so I guess my question to you, Brett would be like, So how in the world do you track that? Right? Especially for like an infomercial, right? I mean, obviously, when something airs, they can then track the time when orders came through. But how do you do that? If you just have a YouTube ad? That’s running all the time, right? And you’re like, yeah, how do I know what percentage? Like how do I attribute that in order to understand like, the true row as of that ad? And to know whether Should I keep running that thing? Or do I need to go shoot it behind the bar?

Brett Curry 37:37

Yeah, and this is a, this is one of those tricky things where I think that’s really one of the reasons why this is a greater strategy for later. Like, once you’re established, once your sound once you got free cash flow, you’re willing to kind of experiment and, and try things for a while, because what’s cool about about YouTube is you can quickly scale from, you know, a couple 100 bucks a day in ad spend to a couple 1000 To 10,000 20,000 to 30,000 to 50,000. You know, like there’s so much traffic available on YouTube. But obviously, you’re only going to do that if it’s working. And so a couple things to keep in mind. And then there are different philosophies here. But a couple things to keep in mind, you can still run traffic directly from YouTube, to a Shopify lander, and then optimize that campaign for conversions. So there’s a campaign type called TrueView. And TrueView on YouTube means basically, you’re only paying if someone actually engages with the video and or they click on the video, but then you can optimize those for conversions. So you can feed Google your conversion data from your Shopify store. And you can say, hey, I, you know, Google, I really want to optimize towards $50 cost per conversion or $80 cost per conversion, or whatever the case may be. So you kind of get that to where that’s like a halfway manageable point, not like profitable, necessarily, but halfway manageable. And then you start looking at a couple things you started looking at what is my branded lift? So how many additional branded searches Am I getting on my Shopify store? Because that’s probably net new shoppers that YouTube generated? And then how are my branded searches organic growth on Amazon search, search, search to track that kind of baseline. I’ll give you an example here to kind of illustrate you know, at scale this becomes pretty apparent sometimes when you’re first starting, it’s not as apparent. Another haircare brand, hair regrowth type brand. They were spending multi six figures a month on YouTube had some tracking issues around iOS 14 paused all YouTube ads pause it all as we’re kind of fixing things. We’re also running their Amazon store and we noticed branded search volume dropped in half didn’t just go down a little bit it was cut in half. And so just a reminder that like okay, that that brand had those branded searches, and those conversions on Amazon those were coming from YouTube, right, which makes sense, right, like that’s someone saw the story. They saw the testimonials they saw the demonstration they saw the hair regrowth. Now they’re going to Amazon to purchase. And so you’ve got to kind of understand those things, but you don’t have to just go into a blind, right. So and, again, the number is gonna vary for every product. But, you know, we’ve had some brands that have scaled on YouTube, but they know that, hey, for every one direct sale they get on their store, they’re probably going to get an additional sale that’s through branded search that we can’t track, and they’re gonna get an additional maybe one or two sales on Amazon, so then you can maybe start to look at, okay, well, then what’s an effective CPA there, you only get to that after you start to see some data and start to see the trends and in search, lift and things like that. But that’s where you got to get yet have some momentum as a brand, you know, to turn that on. But we’ve had some we’ve had some brands where, you know, they’ve got a, they’ve got a CPA target, you know, I need, I need to be at a $30 CPA or even some that are lower, you know, with direct traffic from YouTube. And so we just optimize the campaigns to hit that. But we’re hitting that with Shopify sales, we know there’s some other sales going elsewhere, there’s maybe just not enough data to verify it. And so the thing there is, then just the budgets have to set a little bit lower, right, you just gotta be a little more, a little slower and your, your, your scale on on YouTube, and in those cases, so you can still measure direct sales, you still optimized for direct sales, but just know that there’s more overall lift with YouTube than than anything else? Fascinating.

Josh Hadley 41:20

You know, and I’m, I’m interested to like, are there any specific types of brands or products that work better for external marketing than not, for example, it makes sense if you have a some type of product that needs to be purchased on a reoccurring basis, right? So subscription-type product, right? Like the hair regrowth, right, you’re going to need to repurchase every month, or every two months or something like that, right? So then you can measure more like the lifetime value of a customer verse, maybe as a brand more similar to myself, where we have products around the $20 range, but they’re more kind of like one time purchases, right? You don’t need them every month. Like, are those would you say? Like, maybe you know, YouTube ads and things like that aren’t going to be your best strategy. Any recommendations that way?

Brett Curry 42:14

Yes. Great question. And I would think I would actually say that, yeah, you’re correct. Like, there there, I think you need a few things for YouTube to work, I think the type of product categories is pretty diverse of you know, what has worked on on YouTube, you know, you got the get soap, like Dr. Squatch, you know, that went from 3 million to 150 million a year in sales. And that was driven in large part by YouTube shout out to the, my friends at raindrop, they did the creative work there, they kind of leverage some of our YouTube training to kind of help with that. But that’s soap right. However, it is a premium soap, so good margins. And it is a consumable, so we’re buying it over and over again, right, but it was selling soap to dudes, which that’s not easy, right. And that’s a premium, but it has really worked, you know, then you got kind of on the high margin, you know, larger ticket item side of things Purple Mattress, and a buddy of mine kind of ran media at Purple Mattress in the beginning. And so that’s more of a one time purchase, but a large ticket item and there’s nice margins built in there. So I think you need kind of one of those two things where it’s a consumable, and you kind of know your 30 day 60 day 90 Day LTV or your true LTV, or you don’t have margin and it’s a one time purchase where you can you can invest in it for something that’s maybe you know, a $20 purchase or whatever, even with good margins, it becomes hard to go to, you know, be too aggressive with top of funnel marketing because like your your direct cost per conversion, the direct CAC, you’ll see or CPA, you’ll see from YouTube, it’s tough to get that below kind of the 30 to $50 range now I think it is lower than that, but but being able to see it lower than that, it’s pretty tough to do so. So that’s where it becomes a little trickier and in a case like yours in a product like yours. But if you’ve got it dialed in where you kind of know what your LTV is, then I think YouTube can be great. And so then I would look at okay, is my product clearly differentiated? Right? Can I kind of clearly show why this product is different? And again, this can happen even for non obvious categories like soap. How easy is it to differentiate soap? Or for mattresses like oh, do all matches look the same feel the same? Well, they don’t if you see a Purple Mattress ad you know, once you see that experience that it’s different. And so then how, how easy is it to clearly differentiate your product from everything else that’s out there because what can also kind of happen which is nice with YouTube is you can take someone from a YouTube view and we like to run longer YouTube ads so like 45 seconds to three minutes. If I watch a two minute ad, and I’m kind of convinced that looks like a pretty cool mattress. I’m just gonna go search for it by name and I’m gonna either land on a page on Amazon or I’m gonna land on their store and just check it out. Think about everything I just skipped. I just skipped all the comparison shop seeing, you know, on a category page on Amazon, I just skipped all the comparison shopping and happens on a category search on Google and I went straight to the brand, right. And so that’s one of the things we call it the passing game, because we’re like sports analogies, but you know, go straight from brand impressions and or, you know, impression to branded search can actually be a pretty efficient way to acquire a customer. But I think just because of the nature of how you’re measuring and what you have visibility into, much easier if it’s a consumable with good margins, where you know, you’re at least know you’re like 90 Day LTV or a larger ticket item where you can kind of absorb that that CAC or that cost per acquisition.

Josh Hadley 45:35

Fascinating. This is great advice and recommendation, I think that it’s so important for all of us to go in with our eyes wide open. Right. So I think that what you talked about is like, it kind of is brand specific, right? There’s no one, you know, one size fits all here. And so I think that the most important thing you talked about was like, you can scale up YouTube ads, right? So you don’t have to start with $100,000 budget, you can start experimenting. And I think I love this analogy. It goes back to fishing. And maybe it’s because I just went fishing last weekend, I thought you don’t know what is going to work or what the fish are going to bite on Intel, you get your pull out in the water. And you’re testing something. Right, right. I could fiddle around and I could spend all day searching on YouTube or Google what to fish like to eat. But until I actually get something in the water and see worm, the marshmallow works, the power bait or the law or whatever it is, till I see what’s working. I can’t I can’t do anything with that.

Brett Curry 46:43

I love that analogy. And it’s like one of those things where, you know, you go out fishing, and you don’t catch your things. You’re like fishing does it work? I hate it, you know, and it’s like, whoa, maybe you had the wrong bait? Like maybe you just like the No, no fish, one of the bait, maybe you’re in the wrong place, right? Maybe you’re in the wrong pond or the wrong stream or the wrong lake or whatever, like you’re not in the right spot. And so understanding those things, and I really think actually, those are the two most important things when it comes to ads, right? Especially YouTube, the bait, so the creative is so so important. But you got to be talking to the right person, right? I love that old story of if you could choose any competitive advantage, you know, launching a new business, what would that competitive advantage be? And the answer is a starving crowd, right? I want a starving crowd. That’s what I want. I want people that really, really want my product. So it’s like, yeah, I want to sell hotdogs to people at a baseball game where they’re starving. And I’m the only option right like that, that’s what I want. So it’s usually changing the bait, or it’s changing the audience like those are the two biggest levers to pull or changes to make.

Josh Hadley 47:41

I love that. Now Brett, as we kind of wrap everything up right now, I want you to kind of go through like a quick hit, like punch list of different strategies and things that people can think of, to kind of like, turn on extra levers or valves into their business to, you know, grow their brand. So let’s go with the case scenario where we’ve got a brand started on Amazon, they’ve got their Amazon bases covered. They’ve got a whole suite of products, they’ve got a brand store on Amazon, they’re trying to figure out, what do I do next? We talked a lot about, you know, Google ads, going back to Amazon, we talked a lot about, you know, some YouTube ad strategies as well. Like, give me kind of a quick hit punch list, or maybe a blueprint that you would walk people through of, here’s different things you should test out to maybe you know, 10x your brand.

Brett Curry 48:32

Yeah. So you know, going back to the Shopify store, you know, what I’ve looked at there is when I launch my Shopify store, I’d want to set objectives in two key areas. First one building an email list, right? Because I know if I have an email list, I can sell that list forever, I can launch new products on Amazon to that, ideally, you get an SMS list and so you can you can promote to that as well. So, you know, email lists are worth gold. I don’t see that changing anytime soon. So we even have brands that once we you know, kind of build out their email marketing for them will run campaigns on YouTube, or they’ll run campaigns on Facebook just to get email subscribers, right. So I’d launch and launch a store with the primary objectives of building an email and SMS list and building remarketing lists. So I drop in my Google Pixel, my Facebook pixel. So I can start to build an audience of people wherever they come from, where I can start to remarket to them on those platforms. Because again, now you can launch a new product with that route to that remarketing audience, someone who’s already been to your store before, or when ads get really expensive in Q4. And you don’t want to, you know, fight with everybody else. You just run remarketing ads, right? Or send an email and it’s cheaper and less expensive. So think about those things. Then I started to look at okay, how can I build out a page on my Shopify store that has the same conversion power almost as Amazon so that’s where you’re looking at things like how do I write a great headline? How do I overcome objections? How do I overcome sales resistance and social so show social proof or you know, convince someone that they have taken away risk and things like So building out that page, you know, then I would look at, okay, how do I optimize my cart and my checkout. And so then you can start to look at things like, you know, free shipping thresholds to create upsells. And some of those things, and I guess I should back up really quickly, you know, there’s really only through zero business, right, more new customers increase a Ovie or longer LTV right or higher LTV. So more new customers, get them to buy more when they purchase and get them to buy longer and more frequently. And so then I like to just map out as many strategies as I can to make those things happen. And so you know, on the new customer side, it’s trying to add channels on the AOV side, it’s order bumps or upsells, or shipping thresholds right on the LTV. It’s really leaning into email marketing and SMS marketing. And even using remarketing remarketing ads. It’s trying to sell somebody more and it’s using Amazon DSP remarketing or Amazon DSP, for reorder campaigns. It’s all of these doing all of these little things that are going to increase all of those because what’s cool, Josh, is you want to double your business or 10x your business, you don’t have to 10x or double any of those individual things, new customers, higher ABV or higher LTV, but just meaningful improvements. And all three, it leads to great results. I think the math is 30% lift and new customers 30% lift in a Ovie 30% lift in LTV combined will double your business. Yeah. And so then you just kind of do the math well, okay, I can do that, like I can. What if I 2x my new customers? And what if I can, you know, get a 60% increase in order value or whatever, like, you start to look at that. And that’s when you can really get to that 10x type of growth. Yeah,

Josh Hadley 51:32

I love that. Those are some great ideas. And I love that mindset of you know, there’s really only three levers that you need to focus on. Right, right. Three key areas of growth. Yeah. So I love that. And the most important thing is you got to go test, you got to go experiment, because you have no idea what’s going to happen until you go do it. So Brett, one last thing I wanted to touch on, because you talked about this, right, as we lead into, you know, you know, at what point do you open up your own Shopify storefront, you said, when you have the right contacts, or you know, the right people, or you have the expertise to be able to go do that. So my question would be, how do you go find the right who? Or how do you go, you know, either go through a course and go figure that out yourself? To get to that point. But I think most importantly, if somebody’s already crossed seven figures, you shouldn’t be trying to go do this yourself. Totally. You should be finding the right who and so my question to you, Brett is like, so how do we find the right who and who is that? Who should we be trying to look for?

Brett Curry 52:39

Yeah, it’s a great question. And I think, you know, it kind of goes back to some of the basics of just like Astra network, you know, as people you know, that are in your category the you trust, like who do you recommend? And I think in some ways, like, do you find someone who can build a great Shopify store? It’s almost like finding a good home builder. The best ones are always covered up and it’s just like, so busy. Maybe they can’t even work with you this year. Maybe it’ll be next year, that type of thing. One of my favorites, a buddy of mine, Kurt Elster, also a podcaster, the unofficial Shopify podcast and ether cycle isn’t even his business. But the dude’s busy, like he’s in high demand, so may or may not be available. But yeah, I think you asked your network on things like that. I think then when you get into kind of the traffic side of things, if you’re wanting to learn and just get consumed training to build your team or to build your own skills, I love smart marketer that says her Firestones training, business, you know, my team and I, we built a full Google training, YouTube ad training, full Amazon training, if you want to, like, learn some of our tips on Amazon says all smart marketer.com. And then I think on the traffic side, I got a couple of Facebook agencies that I had that I would really recommend. And then on the Google and Amazon side, like, I gotta I gotta tip the hat to OMG. I love my team. I love what we built. And we can help there as well. And then anybody can hit me up on LinkedIn or wherever and just ask for recommendations. Some of that’s nuance. So if you type kind of tell me what you’re looking for, I may have a good recommendation for you.

Josh Hadley 54:03

I love that. Brett, this has been an exciting episode. I know my brain is just spinning with new ideas here. So good. I appreciate all of the case studies that you shared. Is there anything that we didn’t talk about that you want to you know, kind of relay to our audience?

Brett Curry 54:20

Do you have I don’t think something we’ve covered so much. I mean, there’s always more but one thing I did get invited to speak at the YouTube la offices just recently, and we livestream the whole thing. And so if you go to YouTube and search for OMG commerce, then you’ll see it. It’ll be one of the first videos you see there. But it’s a live streamed event from YouTube LA, it’s me, it’s Jacque Spitzer from raindrop. And we talk about like, “Hey, here’s the formula for scale on YouTube.” And so it’s like two and a half hours. So it takes a bit of time, but we got tremendous feedback in the YouTube videos on well, so that’s pretty obvious. It’s on YouTube, so check that out.

Josh Hadley 54:53

Amazing. Amazing. I’ve already got that on my list. All right, Brett. I love to leave the get or our audience with three actionable takeaways from each episode. So here are the three actionable takeaways that I noted. Brett, you let me know if I’m missing anything. So action item number one is you’ve got to make sure that you’ve maximized everything you can on Amazon first, if you’re an Amazon first brand. So make sure that you’ve got a product line that’s actually built out, make sure that your packaging is cohesive, that you actually have a brand name and mission and vision and values that you’re integrating into your brand that speaks to customers. Focus on making sure you build out your Amazon brand story, your A plus content, make sure your main images are optimized your secondary images, your product, copy your bullets, like it just goes on and on. Those are all the things that get talked about a lot in the Amazon space. So make sure you’re doing all of those basics first, before you get into the some of the more advanced strategies that we’ll go to, which would be action item number two, if you’ve already got your bases covered on Amazon, and you’re wondering, what else do I do with my time to pour gasoline on this fire, like Brett mentioned, his next kind of external marketing source that he recommended was Google ads directly to Amazon, because you’ve already refined your funnel on Amazon, you should already have optimized for that best conversion rate, you should have main images that are standing out right that attract customers over your competitors. Okay, so then you could layer in those Google ads. And again, I think the key takeaway I got from you here, Brett is, if you’re only sending 2% of sessions, to your Amazon listing, don’t expect significant lifts in your organic ranking or overall sales on Amazon, you’re going to need to see that like, Oh, I’m bringing in 10, 15, 20% of the sessions that I’m currently getting, and those are being driven by Google. Now you could probably start to see a significant lift. So I think focus on that. And then third, last but not least, this would be an experiment with different opportunities to grow your brand, outside of Amazon, knowing that arguably 50% of the sales, whether you run a Facebook ad, Instagram, YouTube ad, an infomercial, radio, ad TV doesn’t matter. 50% of your sales are still going to come back to Amazon.

Brett Curry 57:25

Nailed it.

Josh Hadley 57:26

You got to experiment and just see what works. Throw a bunch of stuff at the wall. See what sticks. Brett, anything else you would add on?

Brett Curry 57:34

Those were perfect. And one thing that you know you just mentioned, I mentioned a couple times I didn’t talk a whole lot about Facebook or Instagram. I’m a huge believer in both. I just didn’t dive as deep there. Because that’s not where I play. You know, we have other partners and things that we talked to there. So I just want to focus more on the areas that I know through and through. But yeah, we’re big believers in Facebook and Instagram, too. Awesome.

Josh Hadley 57:54

I love that, Brett. All right, Brett. Now it’s time for your final three questions. So first, what is the most influential book that you’ve read? And why? Yeah,

Brett Curry 58:04

so you know, this may be obvious or this may be a common answer whatever may not be very creative but but for me, it is the Bible I’m a person of faith and so like that’s shaped me from the time I was a teenager to now like still go back to and and so so I gotta say, the Bible for sure. But I’m gonna cheat the question a little bit Joshua can’t really narrow it down to just one. When do we want to talk business books or other books that have influenced me another one recently is Discipline is Destiny by Ryan Holiday. Awesome, awesome book about how to live a disciplined life and how to deal with difficult things and how to grow . It’s fantastic. And then my favorite book on communication is called Made to Stick by Chip and Dan Heath. So I gave you three. I know he asked to give you three but those are my three.

Josh Hadley 58:46

I love it. I love it. You’re always adding so much extra value. I can’t help but the man who continues to give. Alright, Brett. Question number two, what is a new software or productivity tool that you’ve recently discovered that you think is a game changer?

Brett Curry 59:04

Yeah, I love a tool called Sunsama, S U N S A M A. It is a to-do management software. And so basically it works with ClickUp which ClickUp is our project management software we use an OMG and so I love some sama just in the way it gives you kind of a calendar view a Task View you can create you know backlogs and objectives and things like that. Just very intuitive. I will say I think the mobile app needs work which is kind of a big deal, but I’m still doing most of my work on on desktop. So the desktop app is fantastic. But if you’re using ClickUp and you don’t know if you do most of your to-do stuff on a desktop, then I think it’s a thumbs up.

Josh Hadley 59:42

Awesome. I have not heard of that tool. And we are ClickUp users so, you’ve piqued my interest. I like it. Alright, Brett, last question who is somebody that you admire or respect the most in the e-commerce space that others should be following, and why?

Brett Curry 59:57

Yeah, I mean that there’s a lot that I like, you know, I love Nick Sharma. Moiz Ali, founder of Native. Moizs is a friend, we go way back. One that I think, you know, maybe some people aren’t listening to is Jason Goldberg. And so he runs a podcast called The Jason & Scot Show. Scot Wingo and Jason Goldberg. I love that podcast. It’s all about e-commerce news and trends and shopper news and stuff like that. It’s just been one of my go to is just to see like they did. And one really cool thing to do is they do a breakdown of like Amazon’s earnings and to do a breakdown of Walmart’s earnings. And they talk about big IPOs, they talked about the Instacart IPO and stuff like that so for me that’s a podcast that I love. And I’m an auditory learner. So I’m listening to podcasts all the time. But Jason & Scot Show, Jason Goldberg, he’s one that maybe you’re not following that you should.

Josh Hadley 1:00:41

Love it. That is another new one. You’ve just been dropping knowledge and value bombs all along the way here yesterday.

Brett Curry 1:00:50

Awesome.

Josh Hadley 1:00:50

Brett, this has been so much fun. Thanks again for joining us. If other people want to follow you, want to learn more? Want to learn more about your services? Where can people find you and continue to follow you?

Brett Curry 1:01:01

Yep, the best place to go to our website is omgcommerce.com. Click on the let’s talk button, if you want to request a strategy session or kind of dig in. We also have free resources, under the resources session we got a top YouTube ads guide on Amazon DSP guide and a number of others. And then I’m pretty active on LinkedIn. So you want to follow me on LinkedIn, we can kind of continue the conversation there. Or I do have a podcast eCommerce Evolution Podcast. Josh, you’ve been on there. You’ve been on there twice. Yeah. So check out eCommerce Evolution has some awesome guests on there. So check that out as well.

Josh Hadley 1:01:33

Well, I encourage all of our listeners to follow along with what you’re doing because as you can see, today, our conversation could go on for multiple hours. Brad’s got a wealth of knowledge, so much experience and so highly recommend you follow Him whatever platform you choose. But Brett, thanks again for your time today.

Brett Curry 1:01:52

Awesome. Thanks, Josh. Had some fun.

Outro 1:01:55

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