Josh Hadley 4:13
I love that. Well, I know that we see gurus popping up all the time you see it probably on your Facebook feed or Instagram. Somebody’s in front of a nice, shiny Lamborghini or in front of a private jet that says, “Oh, I’ll teach you how to sell on Amazon. It’s all passive income. You just get to sit and collect checks while you’re at the beach.” And I think any of us that have been selling an e-commerce with more than a year’s worth of experience, we know that Amazon Shopify, those are not passive income businesses. And I think that’s the kind of the point of your book is, as we were talking off air, about, you know, the purpose of your book then what I loved is that I feel like the purpose of your book is to help people understand how To build a real business, that’s not just a side hustle. And I think too many of us, you know, we get started as a side hustle, because it’s like, hey, there’s, I can make some extra money on the side. But then we quickly realize, Wow, I got to seven figures, with this side hustle type of thing. Now what? Right, and that’s the primary audience that’s listening to this podcast, they’ve probably stumbled into a high six figure seven figure business, but they want to know what strategies to implement in their business, to scale to eight figures and beyond. So my question to you, Ben, is, how does this book help an entrepreneur scale to eight figures and beyond? Sure, yeah.
Ben Leonard 5:40
And you hit the nail on the head there, right, so many of us start our businesses, as a side hustle, which is absolutely fine. And the way that we should do it, because it would be irresponsible to just quit your job and go all in on an e-commerce business, you know, as entrepreneurs, it’s, it’s almost like sexy to talk about, you know, taking risks. Well, that’s all fine in retrospect, but we got to take responsible and calculated risks. And part of that means very often we start our business on the side, that’s totally fine. But we need to, whilst being aware that it’s something on the side, now, if it goes the way we want it to, it’s going to turn into our full time job, it’s going to replace our income, surpass our income, and hopefully, eventually be something huge that we can sell for life changing money. And to do that, from the very start, we need to treat it with respect. And what that means is getting over the whole side hustle mentality, because when you do that, you’re putting a ceiling, a cap on where it could go from a mindset point of view, and you’re treating it with disrespect. And by extension, you’re kind of treating yourself with disrespect. You’re not treating yourself like a real entrepreneur, you’re kind of just saying, oh, yeah, you know, I got this business, but it’s not a real brand. You know, that’s for? That’s for Nike, you know? And so, you know, to come back to your question, I think there’s kind of a few different angles here, that this works for people who already have a business but are struggling to get where they need to be. One is from the kind of almost the more boring, dry business side of it. So a lot of people might have started this side hustle, building the plane while they fly it riding by the seat of their pants, and it’s gone. Well, maybe they got in when like, for instance, Amazon was, you know, a lot easier to be fair a few years ago. And before they know what they’re doing seven figures, but the whole thing has kind of just kind of happened. And they don’t have a real business organizational structure, they don’t have a team, they don’t understand their processes, and they don’t have them documented anywhere. They don’t understand cash flow management, they often run into cashflow difficulties, they don’t understand really what their profit actually is. And they kind of got where they got to be not, you know, not by luck, you know, took talent, and it took ability to get there very often took a lot of grit and determination. But now it’s time to get serious, in order to break through the thing that’s holding you back very, very often is just yourself and get to the next level. And that might mean learning about many of these things, and then finding the right people to help you implement them, whether that’s a team or an agency or whatever. And then the other side of it is like not not so dry and a bit more fun. And it might be that you’re sitting on a really good business. But what you don’t have is a brand. And ultimately, when you hear people talking about throwing out this was acquired and that was acquired, the word that comes before acquired, nine times out of 10 is brand like the brand was acquired. And so many of us as e-commerce entrepreneurs are sitting on a decent business, but it’s not a brand, it doesn’t look and feel and behave like a legit CPG brand, like our own favorite brands. And that is a lot of what the book is about as well. So there’s kind of two different angles there on how somebody can break through from doing, you know, low seven figures to high seven figures, or mid seven figures to eight figures.
Josh Hadley 8:44
I love that. And then I guess my question would be this, your recommendation is, you know, you know, stop looking at your business as a side hustle and do what the other big CPG brands are doing. So that would be my question to you, Ben is what are the other CPG brands doing that our entrepreneurs should be implementing in their business right now that can really be a game changer for them? Yeah,
Ben Leonard 9:08
so there’s a lot of what we should take from big brands. But we should also be aware of we can do things that the big brands can’t. So let’s start with what we can take. So what I would say to people is think now about your favorite brands that could be related to your hobbies, or even your profession, or could just be like your favorite food products in the cupboards or in the fridge at home. How do they look and feel and behave? What do they do that you’re not doing in terms of not just like the actual product, but the experience of receiving the product, the experience of using the product, the experience of interacting with them away from the product, so the content they produce, whether that’s written content, video content, audio content, lead magnets, when maybe it’s their website, maybe they show up in your social feed with just kind of like funny stuff that reminds you about the brand and keeps them top of mind. That’s not just for big established huge multinational conglomerates that’s for us guys on laptops in spare rooms as well. So part of it is like how do your favorite brands make you feel that way? Well, they make you feel that way through their branding, and they deliver it through their marketing, we can do that too. And we should give ourselves permission to do that. And then the other side of it is what can we do that they can’t do? Because ultimately, they are huge, lumbering, bureaucratic organizations with layers of, you know, I call it the onion layers of bureaucracy, somebody has an idea, it may never happen. And if it does eventually happen, it doesn’t happen for a very long time, at which time things have moved on. But when we have ideas, we’re a little speedboats, we can just do it. We can try new software, we can change our strategy on Instagram, we can start emailing people more or start doing plain text emails instead of branded emails or whatever it might be. Because we’re little speedboats. Either. We’re one person on a laptop, or we’re a small team, or we might be a large team. But we’re a forward thinking and progressive team who doesn’t get caught up in bureaucracy. So that’s just a few ways that we can start being more like a real brand. Yeah,
Josh Hadley 11:03
I like that a lot. And then the one thing that I really resonate the most as we talk is that you’re not just a guru that is just teaching about this, how to sell on Amazon or anything like that. You have been an active seller, you’re also working with other brands right now. And so you’re in the trenches. And you’ve also exited your own business as well. I think a lot of us learn the most from the mistakes that we make, even as we listen to what mistakes other people made. Some of those are like the most valuable lessons that we can glean. And I know that’s kind of what has shaped your book, as well as like, what are some of the mistakes you made? So then I would love to hear what are some of the biggest mistakes you’ve made while trying to grow your own e-commerce brand that you think you know, other sellers can take away and make sure they don’t make the same mistakes. Sure,
Ben Leonard 11:58
yeah. Yeah, you hit the nail on the head, I have sold, I still sell, I co-own a couple of brands and I have minority equity and other brands that I mentor. And one of the things that kind of frustrates me about some people in the space is lack of transparency. So I’m just gonna straight up tell people the first brand that I owned, I can tell you this is not under NDA or whatever. The first brand that I owned and then sold and it was bought by through SEO was a fitness brand called beast gear. Now, anything post 20 In terms of what that brand does, I don’t take responsibility for it. So don’t blame me. To kind of shine a light on some of the topics people have been talking about the way some brands have gone after acquisition. Now depending on I know that this is coming out of spring 2024 Go look me up on social because I might have come out of stealth mode on some of the brands that I’m building now. The reason I am keeping them close to my chest now is because I will be going public with those brands. But while those brands are in their infancy, they’re vulnerable because you know, you might have X number of reviews, it just takes one hater to listen to you on a podcast to go leave some negative reviews and your brand has tanked. So all my brands will be public domain at some point to come back to your question though, mistakes I’ve made. I’ve made a ton. Here here. Here’s one which I think has a really good kind of lesson at the end of it. I remember when I tried to save money by trademarking my brand name and logo myself, and I was so smug when I got my trademark registered, right I’d read on the Facebook for forums or groups and stuff, or you could do it for like 200 bucks or whatever. So I was doing this in the UK at the time UK Intellectual Property Office registered at 200 pounds. Very smart. Like a year later, I’m getting some free legal advice from a top IP legal firm at my local library. We’re doing like a pro bono give back to the community kind of thing. Turns out my trademarks are weak, they’re flimsy, I’ve left the brand wide open. Frankly, I had a lucky escape. And so I paid to have the trademarks read on professionally. And there was a huge difference in the breadth and depth of that protection that I had a good trademark. And I learned that cheap is expensive and expensive is cheap. Like in other words, it pays to invest in getting things right the first time you will save a lot of money and prevent a lot of headaches down the line. I’m so grateful that I learned that lesson because not long after an official looking letter landed on my doormat, and I opened it and it was all in German. I couldn’t read it. But I could recognize a photograph of one of my products. You can look it up now. If you’re listening to folks called beast grips, a thick bar adapter from my brand beast gear, which made barbells and dumbbells more challenging to lift. And this letter I couldn’t read but I could I could recognize the numbers and in big, big letters 50,000 euros, I was in a bit of a panic. So I called my IP lawyer of course I now have learned that expensive lawyers worked out cheaper in the long run. She did a bunch of work and we realized what was going on. These guys were trying to bully me out of business. They actually weren’t even German, but they were suing me in Germany because that was one of the countries I was selling in and they knew the language barrier would just like add to the sense of it. intimidation. But their accusation that I was infringing on their IP was nonsense. So I took them on, and I won. And that lesson kind of, you know, strengthened my belief in myself and in the brand. And it’s here’s how I won. And this is the funny thing, right. And I think this is a really important lesson. Turns out that not only was I not infringing on their patents, which I knew all along, but the huge company that owned the brand that was suing me how to acquire that product and that brand, from a solopreneur, just like me years before, but he’d made a mistake. He he never learned that cheap was expensive and expensive was cheap. So his patent drawings were really weak. And when we looked into them, the drawings were so poor, they didn’t really protect his own product. So my lawyer said to their lawyer, either you play fair with Ben, or you play fair with the whole market, either go away, or we’re going to go and have your patent invalidated in the courts, which will open the market to everybody, and they very quickly ran away. So you know, my failure was trademarking the brand name myself. But it all turned out well, in the end, because I learned an important lesson.
Josh Hadley 16:05
I love that. So learning the — I love that takeaway that expensive is actually cheap. And cheap is expensive, when you try to go and do things yourself, right, when you’re not an expert, when you’re not in an attorney. Right, especially in the ip route. I think that that scares a lot of sellers, right? They don’t even want to have to think about it. But it is so vitally important because yeah, you know, as Amazon gets more competitive in these marketplaces, you’re going to rub shoulders against other people, the whether it be design patents or utility patents or copyright infringement. And so knowing that you have the protection in place, I think is invaluable allows you to sleep better at night. Oh, sure. does. Yeah. Then what other mistakes have you made? Well,
Ben Leonard 16:53
so when I sold the business, I sold it in late 2019. At that point, we were selling in the UK, right across Europe, and a tiny bit in Australia, in the Middle East. We were not selling in the US. And that was a huge mistake, if I think so the business was generating $6 million in top line, when I sold it, I think for basically almost zero additional effort, the business would have been three or four times bigger, just by going to the US, you know, the UK is something like, or the UK and Europe is something like a quarter of the US market size. So why didn’t I? Well, to answer that, I kind of need to wind the clock back a bit, I started the business with no business experience, no product development experience, no marketing experience, I was a an environmental scientist, I started the business when I got sick with a heart problem, I couldn’t work and I couldn’t do my fitness hobbies. So I started a fitness brand, with the intention to sell directly into gyms that didn’t work out, I ended up selling online on my own website and Amazon, I turned out to be pretty good at it. But it made sense to me to start in the UK, because that’s where I was, I was just dipping my toe into the water. I don’t regret starting in the UK. But I regret when I made the decision to be first into Australia and be first into the Middle East. Because I thought being first and getting a foothold would be a smart thing to do, which on paper it is I should have gone to the US and I didn’t. Now on the other hand, not being in the US was also a bit of a carrot on a stick for the buyer, because they saw the growth opportunity. So I, you know, I tend not to beat myself up too much about it. But you know, I also have gone where the opportunity to make my pie bigger existed, right? And that’s one of the reasons that one of my new brands is launched first in the US.
Josh Hadley 18:31
Why didn’t you go to the US? Was it like a fear of the unknown? Was it just added complexity to your current processes? Or what was it that held you back from expanding? Because I think a lot of our listeners are a US base. And maybe they’re apprehensive to expand internationally to the UK or to Germany, et cetera.
Ben Leonard 18:53
I think I didn’t do it because I was enticed by the idea of being a big fish in a small pond in Australia and the Middle East and getting there first. And I had this perception in my head that if I went to the US, I was not going to be able to compete with the guys, the big brands there, which I think would have been untrue, I would have easily been able to use my economies of scale. I was also already selling vast amounts in the UK and Europe. I could easily have gone hard with launches over there and also ported over quite a few of my reviews. For anyone that’s on the fence about expanding internationally. Let me tell you what happened when I went from the UK to mainland Europe. So I was selling the UK things were going really well. At the time the UK was still a member of the European Union, which meant that we could benefit from the Amazon pan EU scheme, which meant I could ship my inventory into a fulfillment center in the UK and Amazon free of charge would distribute my inventory right across Europe so that Hans in Hamburg could get it on Mario in Turin could get it right prime and I knew I had customers there because currently they were willing to pay extra to get it shipped over from the UK. All I have to do to get into this pan EU scheme was registered for VAT in France, Germany, Italy, Spain, Poland, Czech Republic at the time, now you’ve got Netherlands as well and a couple others. And Sweden. It was a huge headache. They did not make it easy. I had to have documents translated, but only by very specifically qualified translators. I had to have documents notarized. I had to have a document to register for VAT in Spain. This was hilarious. There was one guy in my city who could do it, you have to stamp the document we’d like you know, those medieval wax seals, where you’d melt the wax and stamp it to seal like a letter back in the day or like a parchment. Oh, yeah, like that. I was, that is a thing. I had to have that done. And my competitors didn’t bother doing it. They you know, they couldn’t be bothered with the headache, and it was a huge headache. But when I did it, I practically doubled my sales overnight. So I think the lesson there is when, when there’s an opportunity over a barrier, take it, you know, I call it the Sonic the Hedgehog strategy jumped through the hoops. Because on the other side of the hoops, your competitors haven’t bothered. It’s kind of like imagine you’re like a hunter gatherer leading your tribe. And like, you’ve got to get over this treacherous path and this horrendous trek to get over the top of a mountain into another valley. It’s tough and none of the other tribes bother doing it. But when you do get over the other side, you emerge into this lush valley full of resources and your tribe flourishes. It’s kind of like that, I guess.
Josh Hadley 21:25
I love that. That is a fantastic analogy. I do think that many people when they face a barrier, right, they start to retreat, because it’s no longer easy. There’s a lot of unknowns, but businesses about just that. I think that it is a personal evolution, you’re growing personally, as you face these, you know, obstacles, you’re going to grow as a person as a leader, and so will your business. If you don’t run away, right? You only experience failure when you quit. And it’s as simple as that — been any other mistakes that you think you could share that you think can benefit other sellers?
Ben Leonard 22:02
Ah, I mean, I should, like I said, I should have expanded internationally to the US. I made mistakes, actually, here’s some things. So a lot of what I learned along the way, you would, you can chalk it up to to learning from mistakes, here’s something because my business took off so quickly. And there was a bit of luck involved in that absolutely no denying it. The learning curve was fast. So I didn’t appreciate at first how much power I had to negotiate better with my manufacturers. So for instance, I very quickly became several of my manufacturers, I was manufacturing across China, and also in Pakistan with that brand. I became like their best clients. But what I didn’t do, and I should have done was leverage that relationship more to my favorite by negotiating better payment terms, I was really clued up on negotiating better prices, I was constantly getting my price down, which was great. But I didn’t appreciate the power that I could have had to improve my cash flow position and my net working capital position by negotiating better payment terms. So for a long time, I eventually did for a long time I was paying 30%, down 70% when the goods shipped when actually I could have been in a position a lot earlier than I finally was where I was barely paying for my inventory. Not when I left the country. But actually even after I had arrived in the UK and Europe, and was selling this inventory and was selling it before it even paid for it. So now I’m all about teaching people, whether we’re working with them to get their business ready for sale with e-comm brokers or whether they’re just one of my coaching clients to actually get themselves into a position where you’ve barely paid for a portion of the of the shipment before it’s even left the country. And the way to get those terms is to tell the compelling story to your manufacturing partner. The key word here is partner, show them what it looks like. This is how much we can afford to order. But actually, if you can help us out with these payment terms, then we can order this much more. And this extra networking capital allows us to mock it harder, which allows us to grow the business and grow with you. And you can trust us because look at all these orders we’ve already placed and look how much we’re growing all the time. So you know we’re going to achieve this growth, we just need your help with these terms. And one of the best ways to get those terms is to go visit your manufacturing partner. And I resisted for so long. Like I’d met some of my manufacturers at a trade show in Germany twice. But I didn’t go to China until actually a few months before I sold the business, which was a mistake. You know, I was having great zoom calls. While not zoom WeChat calls actually video WeChat calls with these guys regularly. And it was great fun. I enjoyed the relationship I built with them. But I should have gone to China soon. And I don’t really know why I resisted that. And I love travel. And so now you know I mean, I’m currently manufacturing in Vietnam, and I’ve been to Vietnam to meet those manufacturers and I’ve learned that lesson.
Josh Hadley 24:41
Yeah, I think that you hit the nail right on the head there. I think cashflow is one of the biggest challenges that e-commerce entrepreneurs face. Especially if you have payment terms heaven forbid they’re 50/50 right? And you’re paying for inventory before it gets on a boat that is then going to sit on the sea, for 60 days approximately, you’ve already paid for that inventory, right? You’re not going to start making your money back for at least 90 to 120 days at the earliest. Yep. Right. And you can see why so many people get themselves into sticky situations, where you do you have to start taking out loans, you tap into Amazon funding, you tap into, you know, the other many financing partners that we see. And in my opinion, they’re not necessary, right now, because most e-commerce entrepreneurs are not willing to have those difficult conversations with their manufacturer, kind of like you mentioned, they, they’re willing just to like, it’s easy, just continuing to go down the path you’re currently going down, it’s a little bit harder to go show up in person, present a compelling case, and show them the the projections of how you can grow as a brand. If you have better payment terms. I’m curious, Ben, as you’ve been consulting and coaching, working with other clients, and even for your own brand, what are some like realistic payment terms that people could be shooting towards to say, Look, guys, this is the realm of possibility. You could have net 90 terms, once the product arrives in the US like, and again, for many of our listeners, they’re like, wait, what I don’t pay for the product until 90 days after it’s arrived in the US? Yes, that’s a reality. But So Ben, can you give us maybe some of those goals and like what’s really happening with some of your clients, that could be like a goal that people could be shooting towards?
Ben Leonard 26:34
Yeah, absolutely. And a lot of it is how you frame it. So you said they’re difficult conversations. But maybe if you go in with a “Hey, guys, I have great news, we can order this much from you.” And then they get very excited. And then you drop the, “here’s how we do it.” And that’s when you tell them about the payment terms. So look, you’re not you’re not about to be able to go from 30 down to 70 when it ships to, you know, 10% down, and 90%. Net 90 days later, right? Not gonna happen. It’s a step by step. So it could be, you know, 25, down, right 75 on shipping, then you might be aiming to do something like 25, down 25 When it ships 50%, net 30, right. And then what we’re slowly trying to do is slowly shift the proportion that you’re paying when it ships to 30 days later, 60 days later, and eventually, 90 or even 120 days later, if you’re if you’re really doing big enough numbers, but I you know, I’m often encouraging people to aim to do something you know, fairly early on, where you’re going to at least be able to pay for a portion of it next 60 days, because that means that if you have managed to get it in the country, by then you can realistically be selling some of that inventory before you’ve actually paid for it. Because the cash conversion cycle, as you say, in e-commerce is so slow, not only does it take a while for it to actually get into the country, but then a portion of it’s just going to sit on a shelf gathering dust before it’s actually sold. And then of course, however we’ve sold it, whether it’s Amazon or our own website through Shopify, or some other channel, like Etsy or whatever, they are going to hold that money back before they give it to us, you know, as we know, with Amazon, so the better we can get the payment terms, the stronger a position we’re going to be into keep growing our business.
Josh Hadley 28:20
Yeah, I love that. And I love that it’s a path forward. And I love that you kind of reframed what I said was a difficult conversation. I think that changing that mindset to say, Hey, guys, I’ve got great news. But this is how we get to this point, right? I think that’s a huge mindset shift. So I really appreciate that, Ben, then as we start to wrap things up here, give me your top like actionable strategies that you would recommend seven figure sellers implement in their business to help them scale to eight figures and beyond?
Ben Leonard 28:52
Sure. Well, it depends what’s holding you back. So I’ll try and keep this quite general, I think a lot of business owners that I come across, they don’t properly understand their numbers, both at a product level, but also at a business level. And I think part of that is especially for those who have been going a few years and maybe got in when it was a bit easier. They didn’t really validate their products properly. So the kind of the products kind of work like they’re getting the volume, but they always want it they’re constantly running into cashflow problems. And that’s a lot of that has to do with the fact that they didn’t validate the ROI on the product. So their product is not significantly above a 100% ROI, which basically means that they’re never they’re always going to have to keep chucking cash into the business to be able to order more inventory or pay this service provider or otherwise grow their business. So what I would say to people is go back, pretend you’re starting again and revalidate your products understand what are you paying, what are your landed costs, what are the other costs associated with selling them so the the fees on Amazon or whatever platform you’re on whatever it’s costing you to get it to your customer ,factor and storage, factor in return rates, factor in your your advertising and really understand what your tackles actually is, and then understand what is the return on investment. And if that is too low, don’t worry, there are things we can do to fix that. So that can be negotiating down your costs that can be really dialing in your marketing and, and getting your PPC under control, especially if you’ve been running it yourself for a while, and you haven’t been keeping up to, to up to date with all the changes on Amazon PPC, for instance, or whatever platforms you’re selling on. And it can be working on payment terms, or it can be maybe tweaking the product to make it more cost effective. So that’s kind of one thing. And that’s kind of the more dry business side of things. And then on the brand side comes back to what we were talking about earlier, it’s are you just selling stuff? Or do you have a legit brand? How do your favorite brands look and feel and behave? And how can you start resonating with your audience and start to build out and you can do some just Googling on this to find guides, I’ve got some YouTube guides on this as well. Start to build customer avatars, and then build a brand avatar that reflects your customer to make them see themselves and who they aspire to be in your brand, so that they will know, like, and trust you and want to buy from you.
Josh Hadley 31:06
I love that. Those are some quick hitting strategies. And we could dive into many of those. And I think the challenge is that, you know, every brand is going to be a little unique. And so you need to be able to kind of digest what we’ve talked about today and apply it to your own brand. But Ben, as we wrap things up here today, I love to leave our audience with three actionable takeaways from every episode. So Ben, here, the three kinds of actionable takeaways that I’ve noted, you let me know if we’re missing anything here. All right, number one, for any entrepreneur that wants to grow their business from seven figures, to eight figures and beyond. And you started this as a side hustle, you need to shift your mindset and to start treating your brand as a real like large business, right? And if you start to think about it that way, when was the last time that you heard Steve Jobs or you know Elon Musk talk about, so we hired some amazing VAs that took our business to the next level, right? That doesn’t happen, right? And so what that needs to change in your mind is how do I build a team of people that are even smarter than I am that can take this business to the next level? Right? If you look at a Tesla, if you look at Apple, they’ve hired people that are smarter than themselves, right? I don’t think Tim Cook would say that I am the smartest guy in the entire business. That’s why we’re so successful. That’s not where it starts. And so I think having that mindset shift is then going to allow you to understand that building a team around you is going to be what helps you actually grow your business.
Ben Leonard 32:44
Absolutely. It’s very empowering. And it’s great fun to build a team. Now it doesn’t when you know you mentioned VAs there, I hate the phrase VA because I think it demeans the team member right? So I’m all about outsourcing. You know, my team is in the Philippines, and I have some people in Pakistan too. But I would never dream of calling them a VA. Because I think that that demeans them, they are a highly valued member of the team regarding they could be on the moon, right? It doesn’t matter where they are. And when we empower people, not only does it make them want to do a great job, because they’ve been trusted. Imagine if you were working in your day job, if you have a day job now or in your past day job, and your boss was breathing down your neck and didn’t empower you. But when you empower them to go and do something, it’s fantastic. Like I got this question. Just like yesterday on Instagram, somebody posted on my Instagram asking me what editing tools my, my teammate did for my videos, or my bit on Twitter, I forget. And I basically reply saying, I don’t know, I have to ask my team because they do it. But this is a classic example of what happens when you empower your team and you have a team to go and you give the team the outcome. But you don’t necessarily care how they do it. And they go into it. And yeah, so completely other lines do their job.
Josh Hadley 34:02
Love that. Love that 100% in agreement there. So action item number two would be the cheap is expensive. And the “expensive is cheap” methodology that we talked about earlier, right? Whether it’s dealing with IP, and working with lawyers to get your trademark or copyrights or your patents, trying to go alone is going to end up being more costly in the end. And I would also argue it’s the same thing if you’re trying to create a product, right? If you’re creating a new product, and you’re like, oh, let’s use the cheapest materials, I really just want to have, you know, let’s get our minimum viable product out the door. Now, I agree with that to get started. But if you try to go cheap, in the end, that product is probably not going to be as scalable as something that really is just fantastically amazing. Right. And so I think that that lesson applies to business as well. I just talked about hiring. If you go hire the $3 an hour person If that person is probably not going to be as competent, or as big of a, you know, difference maker in your business as somebody that maybe you’re paying them six or seven dollars an hour, but yet so many of us, we love to throw out the numbers, oh, I found this amazing person in the Philippines, I’m paying them $2.50. And it’s almost like how low can you compensate people? And it’s like, why is that a badge of honor? In fact, like, I like to say that some of our highest-paid team members over in the Philippines are making near six figures a year, right, which is like living like a king over there. But I like that, because that shows the level of team that I have. And it’s not about how cheap can I pay people. So in the end, cheap is actually expensive, because you’re going to get what you pay for.
Ben Leonard 35:47
I completely agree with you there. Yeah, whether it’s intellectual property or product design, you know, I’m developing a new baby brand. Right now, I’m on my seventh prototype, and over 100 grand in the hole on the design work. And I’m very happy to have done that. Because each iteration I’m adding, I’m putting more barriers up behind me so the people can kind of catch up with me. But also, I know you can market a rubbish product. And I could have launched it ages ago when it was quite cheap, but it would have worked been more expensive, because the whole thing would have been a disaster. Right? So yeah, completely aligned with you. They’re awesome.
Josh Hadley 36:21
Alright, third, and final action item number three is seeing your manufacturer as a real partner in your business. Right? Not seeing your manufacturer is just somebody that you need to go and reorder products with, but showing up and meeting them in person, understanding the way you negotiate prices with them. And the way you negotiate payment terms with them is all based upon relationship and being able to say, hey, guess what manufacturer, you’re not going to be in business if I’m not in business. And likewise, I can’t be in business if you’re not in business. And so it’s a mutually beneficial relationship when you see it that way. And you come to that manufacturer and you say, Hey, guys, we could grow even faster. If, you know, maybe we change our payment terms, or we could sell more units. But only if we could figure out a way to bring down the cost by another dollar. Let’s brainstorm these things, right? Instead of just going to a manufacturer and demanding X, Y or Z go show up and in a fashion of respect and relationship, sit down and brainstorm together. And that can truly be one of your biggest, competitive advantages in the marketplace, because I promise you 99% of other entrepreneurs just go with demands to their manufacturer. And that’s the type of relationship they have with them.
Ben Leonard 37:44
Yeah, I totally agree. And a fun little game to play with yourself here is called up, pretend to be your manufacturer. And then pretend that you’ve got somebody else coming at you with these demands? And think about how it works for your business. Right? You know, your manufacturers have got a business to run too, they’ve got payroll to make, they’ve got a family to feed, and it needs to make sense for everybody or it ain’t gonna work. Yeah.
Josh Hadley 38:10
I love that. Ben, is there anything else that we haven’t talked about that you think you need to leave our audience with?
Ben Leonard 38:15
I think I would just say this, right? If I had to whittle down everything that’s in my book, to one thing, which is very hard, because it’s an entire book on roadmap from product ideation, all the way through to exit, it would be at every stage, treat the business. And, you know, we said this earlier, right? With the respect it deserves, treated like a real brand, like a real brand looks and feels and behaves. Ask yourself how your favorite brands behave, both in the way they interact with you in terms of branding and marketing. But ask yourself, well, how do I think they behave under the hood in terms of the really boring dry stuff like accounting and operations manuals, and team building and organizational structure? Start applying that to your business, even if you’re just one person on a laptop. And you will? Absolutely thank me for it, you know, later down the line. Yeah,
Josh Hadley 39:03
I love that. And this has been such a valuable episode. But before we wrap things up, I love to ask the three following questions to each of our guests. So we’ll start with number one, then what’s been the most influential book that you’ve read and why?
Ben Leonard 39:17
It’s your favorite guy, Michael E. Gerber. The E-Myth Revisited. I read this like twice a year. It is an absolute classic. It is applicable to a newbie, I first read it when I was a newbie or a relative newbie. But it’s also applicable to somebody generating you know, I would argue people who are doing nine figures would get value out of this business, this book because it reminds us that just because we’re passionate about something, you know, it’s the entrepreneurial myth. That’s what the book is called. Just because we’re passionate about something doesn’t mean we’re qualified to run a business on it. And we need to learn those skills and bring in those people to help us do it. And it teaches us to treat our business like a large organization from the very start. And I absolutely love it. And I revisit it a couple of times a year to make sure that I’m practicing all of those things.
Josh Hadley 40:06
Yeah, I completely agree with you. I love that book. We had Michael Gerber on the podcast. So to those of you who haven’t listened to the episode, go dig it up, go search for it. Michael Gerber was on the podcast and shared lots of great strategies of how to hire A-level talent as well for the business and how to really treat your brand like the brand that should be in a big business. Then question number two here, what’s been your favorite productivity tool, or maybe a new software tool that you’ve recently discovered that you think is going to be a game changer?
Ben Leonard 40:36
Yeah, absolutely. So it’s not that new, but they’ve improved it a lot lately. Before tell you what it is, I’ll give you the background. So with my first brand, I was tracking my inventory and trying to understand how much I needed to order how much I needed to put into a 3PL, and when to move it out of the 3PL, I was doing that all with, like these haphazard Google Sheets, and really long, complicated formulas that I put together myself, and it kind of worked. But it involved a lot of effort. And more recently, I started using a tool called SoStocked. Some people might have heard of it. And it makes the whole thing really, really, I’ve been super impressed with how much it’s helped me and the brands that I own, and that I mentor. And the reason I think this is you know, so important going forward is e-commerce is getting harder, Amazon is getting harder, it’s way more of a pay-to-play playground, which means we got to be on top of our cashflow, and a huge part of that is managing our inventory. So I love SoStocked.
Josh Hadley 41:35
Yeah. I love that. I echo that same sentiment. All right, then last question here, who is somebody that you admire or respect the most in the e-commerce space that other people should be following? And why?
Ben Leonard 41:46
Yeah, it’s my friend and colleague, John Derkits. So, John is actually the North American deal director for Ecom Brokers. But that’s kind of beside the point. Yes, I work with him in that capacity, but just follow John’s material. So he’s been kind of in stealth mode for so long, and only really recently has started to kind of, you know, put his head up above the wall. He was on Adam Runquist’s YouTube channel a little while ago. Adam called him the goat of Amazon, which I gotta agree with. Because John was head of Amazon, Canada for the electronics category for a long time. Then he worked for an aggregator called Forum Brands. And he also was a KPMG. And now he’s with us at Ecom Brokers and doing his own consulting to and the guy’s just a genius. His LinkedIn is phenomenal. His Twitter, Twitter or X is great. He doesn’t know I’m telling you all this will be highly embarrassed if he hears this. He’s just a wealth of knowledge and a great dude as well. So everybody should follow John Derkits.
Josh Hadley 42:41
I love it. And we’ve actually got John is scheduled to appear on the podcast in a coming episode. So there is a teaser that you’ve already laid out the elevator pitch for him. So stay tuned. John Derkits will be on the podcast. But Ben, this has been so awesome. If other people want to learn more about you. They want to find your book they want to know, maybe hire you for coaching where can people follow you and learn more?
Ben Leonard 43:06
Absolutely. So on all social media channels, my handle is Ben Leonard pro Twitter, Instagram, TikTok. I’m on LinkedIn. Just look me up Ben Leonard. My website is Ben Leonard.pro. My book, Quit Stalling and Build Your Brand is on Amazon. Just Google or sorry, search on Amazon, Quit Stalling and Build your Brand. If you want to get the bonuses go to QuitStallingBook.com You can drop me an email: Ben@BenLeonard.pro or we’re at ecombrokers.co.uk for selling your business. Lots of ways to contact me. I’m all over the place. But I’m always happy to hear from e-commerce entrepreneurs. So get in touch.
Josh Hadley 43:40
Awesome. Well, Ben, thank you so much for your time today. It’s been a pleasure. And I know I think our guests are going to have a lot to digest after listening to this episode. So thanks again for your time.
Ben Leonard 43:51
Thanks for having me, man.
Outro 43:54
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